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Thursday, 06 September 2018

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I'm not sure what we will do but over time I'm sure we will apply pressure where we can.

The fact that it is a military-grade nerve agent should provide further comfort for the MOD, at least. The only lethal way to deliver the stuff is, apparently, to get the victim to spray it directly on their skin. Providing we train our soldiers not to pick up perfume bottles on the battlefield and try out the contents, we should be OK.

Mind you, the MOD seems to favour recruiting women and gays, so we might have a problem with this one.

"Mind you, the MOD seems to favour recruiting women and gays, so we might have a problem with this one."

Well, at least the new recruits will be more 'sensitive'.

Actually David, from Putin's point of view, the operation was a success.

The key to all this is understanding the Russian people. They are very stoic and they have a historically proven ability to endure all manner of hardships. They are also EXTREMELY patriotic and xenophobic. In fact, it is no exaggeration to say that with regard to the global situation they believe it is Russia vs the whole World.

And now onto Putin. His domestic policies - as any Russian will tell you - are piss poor and corruption - easily Russia's worst enemy - permeates the whole country and like a fish, it starts from the head and works its way down. Most Russians are well aware of the situation and they don't like it

Now Putin, while an extremely nasty piece of work, is also a highly intelligent nasty piece of work. He knows that he is unpopular on the domestic front. However, he also fully understands Russian patriotism and xenophobia. His tried and tested solution has been to involve Russia in low grade foreign conflict which inevitably sends his popularity ratings through the roof and a study of Russian involvement in the Crimea, Eastern Ukraine and Syria and the effect this has had on his popularity proves the point completely.

The attack on the Scripals is just another example of this. The body count, even including the collateral damage, has been minimal, but... BIG BUT... the publicity has been huge. Most Russians heartily approve approve of the elimination of traitors and the fact that Sergei Scripal survived would only be a matter of regret to them. Sure, a few foreign feathers have been ruffled, but hey, the situation will soon calm down again. In the meantime, Putin's popularity continues to head north.

Like Thud, I really don't know what we should do. What I do know though, is that penalizing the Russian people for the actions of their leader will only succeed in driving large numbers of them further into the Putin camp. However, I suspect that continuing the policy of making life as difficult as possible for Putin and the assorted kleptocrats and gangsters who run Russia, is the best option.

Possibly better GRU agents were spared this mission and it was given to more expendable ones. It still makes its thuggish point; maybe more so.

Well Richard that's pretty much what I thought at the time.

As I recall there was an election looming and spot of overseas jollies is just what the doctor ordered for all leaders especially fascists like Putin.

The Soviet Union was a triad. Communist Party, Military and KGB. Each keeping the other two in check. Now the CP is gone. I believe Skripal was GRU; perhaps the GRU didn't agree with him being allowed to get out of Russia unpunished. So it's just an internal matter settled overseas.

"An internal matter settled overseas" poppycock.

It was an external matter settled by internal means.

It was a threat to Putin's expats, and a test of Western solidarity.

It was conducted by GRU thugs whose induction into the ranks includes watching a video of a traitor being fed slowly into a furnace alive and strapped to a stretcher.

The Russian people are the problem Richard, not just Vlad, as you describe in your opening preamble: Psychotically nationalistic and xenophobic. Why you excuse them and blame Vlad exclusively in your close is a mystery. 70% voted for him, so 70% are thuggish filth like him.

SoD

Wrong Lawrence.

70% of THOSE WHO VOTED... There is a huge difference between that figure and 70% of the Russian electorate. The vast majority of the Russians I know see little point of voting because Putin will always win. In the last election he banned the only viable opposition candidate (Alexey Navalny) from standing, which rendered the whole exercise even more pointless than it was before.

As it happens, I share your concerns over the nationalism and xenophobia displayed by the Russian people, but it is a massive non-sequitur to assume that every single one of those who wears his patriotism on his sleeve can be identified as thuggish filth. My personal experience tells me that this is NOT the case. In fact with all due respect, that particular comment of yours is a perfect example of the kind of identity politics which populist totalitarian leaders have always exploited to terrible effect.

As a general comment on the human condition I find it very disturbing indeed that whole populations can be swept into following disastrous leaders of that type. Very worryingly for us, the British population aren't immune. I know people who are STILL determined to vote for Corbyn, despite his anti-Semitism, and despite the (currently) low key violence and thuggery displayed by his Momentum supporters. I could add that pretty much the whole Jewish population share my concerns.

To be honest Richard, I think Corbyn is right about Israel. It was born out of a racist motivation. A bunch of folks with common ethnicity, religion, and proper full-on 45 degree arm salute "gene-based ancestry going back 2000 years" type philosophy, politics, arguments and attitude, invaded a place they hadn't been for 2 millenia and was now someone else's home, took power, and asserted themselves over the locals in an abusive, murderous way.

Sound familiar? (I mean, apart from Adolf and all that).

Well it should, because there ain't any other state on the planet that was founded any other way!

And that's why it doesn't matter that Israel was founded the way it was, and Corbyn is a tit to suggest there's a problem with it, because if there is, then every other state in the world has the same problem.

And it's very dangerous to say that the founding of Israel was not racist. What if Bradford were to declare itself a Caliphate, instigate Sharia, start beheading homosexuals, stoning to death adulterers, and relegating non-Muslims to second class citizens? Would that not be a racist act and another state born of it?

I would like to be able to say it is, and stop it in its tracks before it becomes established, and thereby accepted, as said, like the rest of the nations.

But your letting Israel off the hook makes it very difficult to nip such future racist adventures in the bud, because to be consistent with your "Israel wasn't founded on racist terms" you'll have to shrug your shoulders at the Bradford Caliphate and say it's not racist.

SoD

So to tie this back to Vlad, was the annexation of Crimea and the Donbass war a racist act by Putin?

I say it was. It was aimed at ripping up a state, Ukraine, on ethnic lines, those of Russian ancestry and ethnicity, by an invading power.

How will you be able to argue that (or, of course, maybe you don't see it like that?) now that you've declared the similar action of the founding of Israel as non-racist?

SoD

invaded a place they hadn't been for 2 millenia

WRONG. WRONG. WRONG

You can hold whatever opinion you like about the founding of modern Israel in 1948 but you are wrong about there having been no Jews in that area for 2,000 years. There has been a continuous and documented Jewish presence in what is now Israel since before the Roman Empire came into existence.

It can be argued on verifiable evidence that there has been a Jewish presence since prior to David's reign from around 1000 BC and that presence remained in varying numbers through to the founding of Israel.

A bit of nit-picking that, OzD, if I may say so, and that's being generous.

I'm sure as Hengis and Horsa lept off their long boats and charged up Blighty's shore, slicing and chopping their way through Celtic flesh and bone in a process that only really ended with the Good Friday agreement, crying, "Have at ya, you Ginger Nuts!" with assorted Anglo-Saxon expletives thrown in that would fill the Gaffer's swear box in no time at all, they said they were doing it all for Mr and Mrs Jones, a couple of Anglo-Saxon traders living on the shores of the river Thames who landed some years before them, and they claim were being "abused" by the Ginger Nuts.

"No, no", exclaimed Mr and Mrs Jones after H&H knocked on their door with the advance guard of the Anglo-Saxon hoardes, "It's really nice here, the locals are lovely".

"Nonsense! It's obvious you've been repressed and brainwashed! We're here to save you!" Then H&H whisper in Mr and Mrs Jones' ears, "And there's a couple of thousand groats in compensation if you were".

"Oh, well, as it happens, Sean O'Grady did give me a funny look the other day ..."

"A 'funny look'! A 'FUNNY LOOK'! There, told you so!" exclaimed H&H with righteous indignation, "Kill all the Ginger Nuts!"

And so it was for 1500 years until the Good Friday agreement that ended the murder and mayhem - and who would want to risk undoing that agreement?

Oh, yes, I almost forgot ...

SoD

Have you noticed SoD, that Russians and Ukrainians are all Slavs? They might be, like you, zenophobic, but they aren't being racist in relation to each other.

Let's not forget, BOE, the Judean People's Front, the People's Front of Judea, and the Judean People's Popular Front (our favourite, "He's over there! Splitter!") will always hate each other more than the Romans ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHHitXxH-us
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WboggjN_G-4

No sooner than Hengist and Horsa were pushing up the daisies the Anglo-Saxons split into the Heptarchy, and the Wessex, Sussex, Kent, Essex, Anglia, Mercia and Northumbria Anglo-Saxon tribes carved up the geography and started knocking six bells out of each other until the Normans came and did for them all.

And why'd you call me xenophobic? It can't be because of my 70% comment, because it's aimed at the 70% of Russians who voted for Putin, not all Russians, as Richard points out. And it can't be because of anything I've said about Jews and / or Israelis because I've be clear, in fact my whole point is, we're all tarred with the same brush (pun intended).

SoD

Lawrence,

1) You seem to be confusing nationalism with racism. The two are completely different.


2) As Aussie D has stated, there has been an indigenous Jewish population in Palestine since biblical times. In fact, this accounts for some three million people today, roughly half the population of Israel.

3) The Jews have fled their homelands in much greater numbers than Palestine. Okay, two wrongs don't make a right, but the evidence of a large scale Jewish exodus is incontrovertible. In fact, the land abandoned or confiscated in Arab states, amounts to territory five times the size of Israel. Also, Arab anti Semitism has existed since the 7th Century. Jews in their lands have been and continue to be treated as a subjugated dhimmi minority.

4) There are two sides to every argument and on the basis of your comments, you only seem to have examined one of them. Here is the link to an article that supports the other side. You think Corbyn is right about Israel? Then read on. You may disagree with some or all of it. If so, a point by point rebuttal would be appreciated.

https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/the-jewish-exodus-which-corbyn-ignores-jeremy-corbyn-anitsemitism-1.468886

https://www.businessinsider.com/200-anti-semitism-complaints-against-jeremy-corbyn-left-sitting-in-a-folder-2018-9

Well Loz there's your "Hate Speak" laws.


Richard, in your own words, "two wrongs don't make a right".

So you've just agreed with me that the state of Israel was a "wrong", so now you're a racist like me, apparently.

Quoting lists of Arab misdemeanours doesn't advance the debate about Israel's fundamentally racist origins, just as complaining about Anglo-Saxon, Celt, pilgrim settlers misdemeanours.

It's all horeshit. Everyone was at it at their birthing point in history.

As for this comment in your link ...

"The Jewish nakba vindicates a sovereign Jewish state in the region. As an aboriginal Middle Eastern people, Jews have an inalienable right, enshrined in the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous peoples, to self-determination."

I wonder what OzD has to say about the Abos exercising their right to self-determination and breaking away from Oz and founding their own state based on their ancestral lands?

SoD

The Jews are Semitic. The Arabs are Semitic. If they are unpleasant to each other, it has nothing to do with racism. Religion yes, Race no.

Problem is, BOE, racism's definition has slithered across a plethora of variations over the years, the current definition having slipped from the hand of biology and science into social i.e. expropriated by the left ...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

"Therefore, racism and racial discrimination are often used to describe discrimination on an ethnic or cultural basis, independent of whether these differences are described as racial. According to a United Nations convention on racial discrimination, there is no distinction between the terms "racial" and "ethnic" discrimination."

So when you look at what ethnicity means ...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group

.. you discover it means "any group of people who identify with each other by some characteristic or other".

Which is deliciously ironic, really, because that means the Middle Class are an ethnicity, and as such are therefore the most persecuted people by racism in the history of mankind, 120 million Middle Class folks having been murdered in the 20th century - by whom? The left! ...

http://duffandnonsense.typepad.com/duff_nonsense/2006/05/a_belated_happy.html

SoD

It's quite a deal, this, isn't it! A great hammer to whack the lefties.

Consider progressive tax rates. These are racist under the UN's definition of racism! Logic as follows ...

(1) The Middle Class identifies with itself by characteristics: education, job, background, lifestyle, income.
(2) Therefore the Middle Class is an ethnicity.
(3) Progressive tax rates discriminate against the Middle Class.
(4) Racism is defined as "descrimination against an ethnicity or race".
(5) Therefore progressive tax rates are racist.

As I said, any discussion of racism is all horseshit now, because the left has destroyed the meaning of words and language itself.

SoD

As said, Richard, Putin and his regime are no longer the problem. The Russian people are the problem ...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/19/russia-warsaw-pact-1968-invasion-czechoslovakia

History and truth have been erased from their individual and collective minds.

They're all Putin-bots now, like suicide vested Islamists.

SoD

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