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Friday, 08 August 2008

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I can provide you with another source of current-day isolationism - one Gregory Cochran, much promoted and agitated for at 2Blowhards.
I wouldn't point him out (if one would honor with a link every kook there'd be no time for reading the sane) if not the reaction in the comment threads. Apparently he speaks for a lot of Americans.

Tatyana, I read the two Q&A sessions and he is obviously a man with whom you do not cross swords unless you are very sure of your facts. I found him very interesting and I intend to follow up some of the other links.

Oh, I think I'd pass on crossing swords with him, but not because I'm not sure of my facts: one doesn't fight an arrogant xenophobe.

First mention of "Israeli lobby" clued me to his (and his interviewer) agenda.

Well, here, you and I part company, Tatyana. I am never surprised when anyone concerned with international affairs puts their own country first. Anyone who fails to do that is a negligent fool. The difficulty comes in judging *which* course of action is likely to serve your own country's interest best. Sometimes it is best to support an ally (as Anerica did for Britain in 1940), or even supporting an enemy (as both America and Britain did for the Soviet Union during WWII); but sometimes, it is necessary to let an ally down (as we did to Czecholslovakia in 1938). I would add that there is no nation on earth more likely to follow national self-interest more keenly than Israel - and quite right, too!

As for his (and others) remarks concerning the "Jewish lobby", that is difficult to interpret. It can be a euphamism expressing the writer's anti-Semitism, or, it can be a straightforward reference to a Jewish lobby that does, in fact, operate (and operate very effectively) at the top levels of government in America. Part, but not all, of it operates in support of Israel, and why not? America is a free country and people should be free to lobby for what they want. The Spanish-speaking lobby is likely to become, or perhaps it already has become, as powerful, if not more so, than the Jewish lobby. Neither of them, I suspect, comes even close to the power of the Farming lobby!

1.
If Britain didn't let Czechs down in 1938, very likely there would be no necessity for further allies involvement. Autocratic dictatorships tend to expand if not nibbed in the bud.
2.
If Israel was following only her own self-interest, there would be no Arab countries to speak of, just dust in the desert. Nobody would care if the Lebanese fire came from civilians. If Israel did what is only good for her, it would react immediately, with overwhelming force, to Arabian attacks - and it wouldn't wait for US to enter the scene - and in a meanwhile watching Israeli children die under bombardment.
I am surprised you are capable to believe lefty propaganda about "Israeli aggressors".

3. There is no Israeli lobby. Period. Anyone who utter these words is an anti-Semit.

Now, now, Tatyana, you are going all paaaasionate Ruuuusian on me - lighten up! Taking your points in order:

1: We were so weak and feeble in 1938 we had no choice but to give up the Czechs to Hitler. Indeed, there is an argument that we should never have given the Poles the guarantee in 1939 because we were still so weak that we only *just* squeaked through in 1940!

2: I try not believe anyone's propaganda! Israel is not capable of wiping out all the Arabs even if it wished to, and any effort to do so would force the Americans to drop them instantly. The Israelis do what they have to do in order to remain in existence. All their policies are decided with that sole aim. They are not interested in the benefits or otherwise to any other countries. Sometimes they act wisely in pursuing their aim of remaining in existence, and sometimes they act foolishly - so what a surprise, they are just like every other nation on earth!

3: Just one example will do:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/about/index.shtml
There is nothing wrong in having a lobby - it's the American way of political life. The fact that some idiots think the 'Jewish lobby' (in all its different manifestations) is all-powerful and that the president cannot pass wind without its permission is simply an indication of their idiocy.

You are Jewish and you would not vote for a Senator in New York who was anti-Israeli. There are very many Jews in New York which is why, for example, 'Hilbilly' makes sure to keep Jewish Democrat party members on her side. I say again, that is the American way - I think they call it democracy!

My passionate nature is irrelevant to the discussion. (besides, I'm not Russian)


In 1938 it was the Germans who were weak and feeble.
Israel had been following the policy of inhumanly restrained response to the kind of actions of her neighbors that if those happened to England (say, originated by your Irish neighbor), they would trigger full-fledged occupation. And should I invoke Folklands? In Israel case, its very existence is probed every day - and they still do not react as the monsters across the border deserve.

In the State of NY my vote doesn't make much of a difference. About Jews voting Democrat: see this


"My passionate nature is irrelevant to the discussion. (besides, I'm not Russian)"

Indeed, I was just teasing you!

"In 1938 it was the Germans who were weak and feeble."

That would require some explanation before I, the Czechs, the Poles, the Danes, the Norwegians, the Russians and the French, accepted it!

You seem to believe that I am *critical* of Israel and the way in which it defends itself. I am not, but neither am I going to say that *everything* Israel does is wise, or well-executed. Everyone makes mistakes. Also, Israel is a nation with a very keen sense of survival (for obvious reasons) and thsu its international policies are aimed entirely in its own self-interest - just like everyone else's.

As for New York, I am only pointing out what is self-evident. There is a large Jewish community and by and large they vote Democrat and thus have a degree of influence. These days, I doubt that its influence is as powerful as, say 50 years ago. Also, I suspect that more and more of them would vote the Republican ticket these days because they would see them as a more staunch ally to Israel than the Dems. However, I do not pretend to be an expert on the New York electorate.

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