Bad news for lawyers so good for us - er, I think!

A somewhat esoteric subject arose in Der Spiegel which reported on a legal case brought by descendants of Italian citizens massacred by German troops in 1944.  The case was joined by similar litigants from a small town in Greece where a similar atrocity took place.  In both cases the claim for reparations was pursued by individuals not by their national governments.  The highest Italian court judged in favour of the litigants and allowed them to pursue a policy in which German-owned property in Italy could be seized and sold if the German government refused to pay up.  The case went higher, to the International Court of Justice (ICJ) which on Friday pronounced in favour of sovereign governments and against individuals.  In effect, what they said was that whilst one government can sue another, individuals may not.  To be honest, I'm not sure what to make of this.  On the one hand, I am always and forever anti-governments; on the other hand, I am sick and tired of foreigners suing my government - or me, as I like to think of it when it comes to shelling out money!  If any of my readers have a view I would be interested to hear it.

Comments

[david morris]

So the guvmint presently representing the Greek pipple, not being sovereign, can't be sued (by anyone?).

Convenient for Goldman Sachs perhaps....

Kind regards

[David Duff]

Actually, I think just the opposite, David, the Greek government precisely because it is not sovereign, having a prime minister appointed by outsiders, could well be sued! In theory, anyway, but no doubt, as always, governments will win.

[Pat]

Surely the sensible response to these claims would be to point out that they concern events some 68 years in the past, and if the claimants have taken this long getting their case together, tough luck to them. It could indeed be said that the actual government responsible was forcefully removed from office and hence went out of business, 67 years ago- good luck suing a company after it has wound up. Of course it should be possible for individuals to sue governments- what else is anyone supposed to do if the government doesn't pay its bills? Shoot them?
As ever, the lawyers appear to have reached a reasonable conclusion in this case for all the wrong reasons.

[dearieme]

It's called Sovereign Immunity and in the USA extends to the States as well as the Union.

[Hank]

David

General principles

!. The King (OK, Queen) cannot be sued with out her permission I.e. sovereign immunity.

2. International Law applies to states not persons.

Lawyers being lawyers their are exceptions and qualifications to the exceptions etc.

But this sounds right. Italy and Greece cans suit Germany for what Germany did in WWII. Individuals cannot suit unless Greece and Italy on one had and Germany on the agree.

Actually I think there are agreements between Germany and most every one for settlements, but the day by which individuals could apply has long since past.

I know there was big ruckus in the about people in the US wanting to sue Japan for damages while they were Japanese prisoners 20 years or so after the cut off date. Factually, no one ever had a better case but they missed the cutoff, no claim coud be processed.

I think one of the side effects, for better or worse, of European unity will be that individuals will have some ability to claim damages against their own and other governments in the EU.

[David Duff]

Thank you all for your comments. I really don't have the knowledge to form a sensible judgment on what is a very esoteric subject. In the particular case concerned, intra-governmental agreements had long since been made to settle reparations so I can see a specific argument for denying individual litigation - perhaps they might have done better to sue their own government for failing to obtain better satisfaction!

It was just the general principle, of which I was unaware, that individuals can never sue another government that took my interest. First of all I was surprised given the number of foreign scallywags apparently suing our government for various supposed harms inflicted on them. The words 'sauce, goose and gander' occurred. Secondly, it made me wonder whether in principle it is "A Good Thing" or "A Bad Thing" that this ruling should be made? I would need to sit in a dark room and think hard for a while to come to any defintie conclusion and irrespective of my inability to concentrate on anything for too long, I simply haven't the time.

[divorce lawyers perth]

You have a point there Hank. The EU basically turned a chunk of Europe into one super country with individual countries comprising states. To that effect, I guess at least some ability to sue governments will inevitably occur.

[Hexe Froschbein]

I think the Italians should be able to sue the Germans if everyone else is allowed to sue the Italians for what the Romans did... ;-D

Seriously, how many generations is this collective punishment going to last? Will the great-grandchildren of the grandchildren of the people who live in the war generation still be liable?

[David Duff]

I hope not, Hexe, because with a former empire "upon which the sun never set" and numerous incidents of bad behaviour the number of litigants is likely to outnumber our current population!