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Sunday, 12 October 2014

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What a load of hogwash. UKIP is much more than a single issue party - read the list of policies have you? No, thought not. The EU is but one part of the problem, albeit a major one. What you completely fail to understand is that UKIP as about us British ruling ourselves again, having control of our desting and currently, control of our borders. Its about the ordinary man and woman who feel betrayed and patronised by our political class. That article by Matthew Parris being a case in point. You are no better than the MSM - more smear and more lies.

'Calm down, dear, it's only politics!' And whilst you're here, 'Rappers' (and welcome to D&N by the way), perhaps you can explain what the UKIP immigration policy is given that your glorious leader says that HIV immigrants should be banned and your new MP thinks immigration is a good thing. Jest askin'!

Inside the mind and manifesto of the average Kipper: -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11156096/What-does-Ukip-stand-for-Ukip-voter-reveals-he-doesnt-know-during-car-crash-radio-phone-in.html

SoD

Oh dear, that was too painful to listen to all the way to the end. Mind you, I sympathise with his inchoate feelings of discontent with the 'Metropolitans' who run the country. A larger than normal gap has opened between rulers and rules and that is always dangerous.

Yes, true.

But you're thrust is right: Ukip says it's a Libertarian party, but it's actually full of socialists - ex-BNP nationalist socialists, and now / soon ex-Labour lefty socialists.

If I actually thought Ukip was a Libertarian party I might be tempted. But any party that in its DNA despises freedom of movement and has a majority who loves and believes in the NHS, isn't Libertarian, and never will be.

So I revile them because they besmirch Libertarianism in the sort of cynical way that the very "political elites" they bang on about would be proud of: By declaring an association with a great and good idea, while at the same time being something completely different in actuality.

SoD

Also there is the problem of 'the people' - dread word! Everyone, especially 'Kippers', supposes that they, and they alone, speak for 'the people' whilst ignoring the fact that huge swathes of 'the people' still cling to the Tory and Labour parties.

Of course, the Tories and Labour, don't claim to speak for the people do they? In spite of the fact that millions vote for UKIP, Greens and the Monster party or don't vote at all.

No good you coming back her in a grump, BOE, just because you're not lounging about on those Med beaches watching 'Miss Tractor Stats' from Russia!

Damn! I check in on this forum of class and decorum right before lunch and wow....I guess lunch will keep for another hour or so.

Sorry, 'Whiters', was it something I said ... ?

Nigel's, and UKIP's, immigration policy is much like Canada's, Australia's and a great many other countries out there. A points based system where the would be immigrant needs to show some utility to the host country. I don't know Carswell's policy but the basic libertarian policy goes something like this: "Open borders immigration / Welfare State:- pick any one".

Of course libertarians tend to pick open borders and no welfare state but one wonders what the result of a nationwide poll on that question would be. Hmmm... So, how to get from here to there?

As for the HIV/AIDS furore. I believe this was in the context of people coming over here to get free treatment for the disease on the NHS. I wonder what the great and the good would have said if he had talked about denying immigrant smokers treatment for their diseases, or perhaps obese immigrants.

Yes, in Scotland smokers are denied treatment despite having paid into the system all their lives, and a majority of doctors think British smokers and the obese should be denied treatment. Something to do with lifestyle choices.

My main beef with UKIP is their desire to keep the NHS ('envy of the world'), intact, but again how to get from here to there.


"Nigel's, and UKIP's, immigration policy is much like Canada's, Australia's and a great many other countries out there. A points based system where the would be immigrant needs to show some utility to the host country."

- A points based system is intrinsically anti-Libertarian. A points based system enables the executive to penalize certain people with global competition, while privileging others with a closed shop. So IT people like me will see our salaries slashed as every Tom, Dick, and Harry is invited in, while others on the whim of the executive will be protected and their salaries supported. I mean, who do you think you are to plan a points based system, deciding who's of "utility" to the country or not, a socialist or something?

"Of course libertarians tend to pick open borders and no welfare state but one wonders what the result of a nationwide poll on that question would be. Hmmm... So, how to get from here to there?"

- Spoken like the political elite - chuck the principals out and work out how to get the votes in. I know, call yourself a Libertarian party and invite in socialists, that way you make a "broad church" and get elected.

"... a majority of doctors think British smokers and the obese should be denied treatment. Something to do with lifestyle choices."

- Yes, the lifestyle choices of doctors to do fuck all for their closed shop £100k plus salaries - I bet they won't won't be threatened by competition from a points based system with their lobby in parliament.

"My main beef with UKIP is their desire to keep the NHS ('envy of the world'), intact, but again how to get from here to there."

- Vote Tory, and get them a substantial majority. The only party that has any pretension to privatize, mutualize, and charitize the service providers behind the NHS, even if a small pretension.

SoD

"No, no, no, no! Now, they - yes, it's always that mysterious 'they' - want to make it a criminal offence for a third party to publish intimate photos that you either took yourself or allowed someone else to take and which, anyway, you sent to them."
It has long been a criminal offence to post material which can be deemed obscene. Photos or videos of undraped young ladies in provocative or intimate poses or actions can certainly be deemed obscene if they are likely to 'deprave or corrupt' (the official version) or 'if they give the judge a stiffy' (the unofficial version). If such material has no artistic merit or for the public good and is designed purely to titilate, then it can be deemed obscene. This can also be covered under the Indecent Displays Act which covers indecency in a public place or a place to which the public have access, whether by payment or otherwise. Whether internet porn sites, which can be easily accessed by members of the public with or without payment, can be classed as a public place is a moot point, though people have been prosecuted for having images of young children which have been downloaded from such sites, so perhaps they can be classed as a public place. Of course, that the (airhead) celebrities have willingly taken the selfies and 'home videos' can be a defence, even though they were designed to be shared with a loved one and no one else, though the fact that they were copied unlawfully, and then disseminated on the internet without the permission of the people concerned does raise the question whether this falls within the Obscene Publications Act or the Indecent Displays Act. I understand that a mega wealthy star of the entertainment world is taking a reactive process in trying to identify anyone involved in the unlawful obtaining of such material or sharing it through the internet and then taking action against that person or persons, either through the courts or 'summary justice', whatever the latter means. I have suddenly taken an interest in reading the obituary columns!

Well, Penseivat, I think you'd have a hell of a job proving anything obscene these days! And all that legalistic guff - don't think I'm not grateful and it sounds as though you know where-of you write - simply confirms my suspicion that it is all 'make work' for rich lawyers and idle policemen. If you take the pic you get the embarrassment - and that is the very best of punishments and it doesn't cost the taxpayer a penny. And, as recent events confirm, occasionally it rids us of the odd Tory MP so I'm all in favour of 'selfies'.

"Vote Tory, and get them a substantial majority"

Yes, and watch them renege on all their promises again. Oh. they may fiddle around the edges of the welfare state in general and the NHS in particular, but the solution to the problems posed by those policies will not be found by voting. They await the complete collapse of the economy. Until that happens, no government can do more than tinker with those particular sacred cows.

So I suppose that voting Tory will bring us nearer to the abolition of the welfare state since their desire to keep us in the EU, (shackled to a corpse as Hannan says), and their insane penchant for saving the world by switching the power off in Britain will bring about that economic collapse a bit sooner.

Add in their apparant reverse points based immigration policy where those of least utility and illegals are preferenced over those who wish to contribute to society and we can wave bye-bye to prosperity and say hello to austerity.

So why vote UKIP if it's all going down the pan anyway? To kick their elite, oh so superior lying arses as hard as possible.

I'm with you Kevin. I suspect our host is a secret member of the Masochist Party!

Absolutely not, BOE, my pain threshold is in minus figures, as I explained to 'nursie' when she gave me my flu jab on Saturday. Still, I didn't cry and she gave me a sweetie!

Flu' jab eh? Standby for a rise in body temperature and before you know where you are, you'll wake up in hospital surrounded by nurses in space suits.

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