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Tuesday, 28 July 2015


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"I do not even wish to contemplate the catastrophe through which the Chinese people will have to suffer" - and by extension everybody else.

History also shows us that people of the type running China rarely admit "it's a fair cop guv, you got me banged to rights" clear their desk and head for their vegetable patch.

I think we can expect many years of frightful ructions, involving Siberia, Taiwan, the Spratleys to name but three.

India may well come in for some, and god alone knows what he plans for N. Korea, S. Korea, Hong Kong...

It looks set to be an utter utter nightmare

For democracy to work, you need a culture of democracy. Right down in the cultural DNA of every citizen, so to speak.

And I think that a culture of democracy only comes about after a prolonged period of abuse of the citizens by authority, during which, the stuttering realization that authority is the problem, not the solution, is taken on board, and gradually becomes the necessary cultural chromosome for democracy to work. Once in the cultural gene pool, it is passed down through successive generations, and very hard to destroy.

Anti-authoritarianism found its beginnings in Britain and Northern Europe as a response to the systematic and prolonged abuse of authority by the catholic church. From Wycliffe right through to the reformation the essentials of the individual vs. authority and the challenge to authority by the individual was drawn out of Northern European humanity by the catholic church. About the only thing the catholic church was really useful for in its cruel history.

Once the specific challenge to authority was established, and a specific understanding of liberty formed, the generalisation was sure to follow, hence Liberalism, of the genuine 19th century variety, not the "Il-Lib, non-Dem" reactionary variety.

Anywhere that hasn't gone through a process of sustained defiance of authority and learned anti-authoritarianism the hard way, isn't ready for democracy.


Gloomy but probably true, Cuffers!

Tentatively I think I disagree with you, Lawrence. I suspect that it is the notion of *private* property that is the first mover in a gradual drive to democracy. I think of the barons forcing King John to sign the Magna Carta. Their prime interest was to ensure that the King must respect private property, or to be precise, *their* private property. Thus was the King's power restrained and he could no longer claim unlimited power over his subjects. 'From little acorns great oaks do grow' and all that!

There is, I think, an increasing amount of property ownership in China and if the CPC allows that to come under risk then they will feel the wrath of the people they always claim to serve!

But are you not describing yet another sustained abuse of power, that of King John (and many of his predecessors), namely arbitrary expropriation?

I still think the left footers advanced Liberalism, the necessary cultural ingredient for Democracy, more thoroughly than the Barons, but the pattern is the same.


But SoD - I think it could only because there was a sort of folk memory of property and common law based freedoms dating from before the Norman invasion.

That is why what we know today as western ideas (in practice, Anglo saxon) ideas of freedom and democracy originated in England, and her bastard child the USA, and not France, Russia god help us Belgium etc.

And I suspect that is why of all the nations in Europe, Germany despite her patchy 20th century and the Nordics are the only ones with something approaching reponsible government.

I've read the post, David, however could you tell me what is particularly meant under the term "democracy" in the west? What are its features? What goods does it bear for ordinary citizens of democratic state? The reason for my question is the foolowing.
Ordinary Russians consider democracy like an absolute evil, thanks to Gaidar, Nemtsov, etc. In Russia it swap the soviet era without any transition period, and I still remember the times then one could not even afford a single sausage, and it's not an exageration.I am sure it's just a bad experience made by bad performers, but anyway I beleive the meanings of democracy in Russia and in the west are different.
It's just to start with.

See what I mean?



Your observation is interesting, if scary.

It does seem strange that wherever R1B-S21 goes and intermingles, democracy and liberty thrives: -

Is it possible that the predisposition to raise two fingers to authority is genetic?

And how ironic that the very tribe who have the gene in its purest form, are the very ones most prone to authority, and were the ones to disgrace such notions so thoroughly that they can barely be spoken of today.


What is this democracy you talk about. Does it mean forced multiculturism, rule by trade union , Cultural marxism, progressive judges, family courts and the like.
I have heard of voting but that is a social ritual that never had much effect and is now fading.

Now "Here's a thing", in my best Irish accent.

I recently did a project at Guinness Partnership, a large housing association and social enterprise spin-off from the famous brewery family.

After having been there for sometime, their project manager informed me that his brother had the exact same skills as me and was currently in between contracts.

I knew the pm well enough by then to say " Fuck me, what am I doing here then?! Why isn't your bro taking in the lolly?"

He smirked and replied "Because the Guinness family has always had an extremely serious anti-corruption, anti-patronage, anti-nepotism policy. I wouldn't be allowed to hire family under any circumstances".

I managed to bite my tongue before blurting out "That's bloody unusual for a bunch of paddy left footers", not knowing him quite that well at this time. (And remember I am a half paddy left footer, as you know, so I'm allowed to say such things).

"Well, good for them, my mortgage gets paid too, which is always good!" I managed, then realizing his brother's situation made the comment a toe-curler, perhaps I'd have done better with the original.

Anyway, I thought what with the whole "Il-Lib, non-Dem" reactionary 20 the century in the way, what a marvel that such high standards still exist. I've seen car park backhanders in the NHS, and all manner of unfettered favouritism, prejudice, and bigotry in industry in general, how marvellous to see such a contrast. And what a curiosity that a patently non-English originator should out Anglo-Saxon the Anglo-Saxon, so to speak.

So the above thread having reminded me of this event, I just looked up the Guinness family on Wiki.

They're Anglo-Irish Proddies.

Top o the morning to yer!


Lawrence you cannot beat the Paddies especially the left fookers. They(an agent) used to buy the NI contribution stamp books from punters that had become unemployed. So paddie from Donegall waited outside a well known pub in the Calton ( Glasgow) for the bulider contractor to drive up and chose the labour. I still have my old stamp book Lawrence. Never sold it.

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