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Tuesday, 06 October 2015

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"a poll published today still shows a majority of Brits favour staying in the EU. Mind you, we all know now, after the last election, how utterly useless polls can be."

Let's hope that this one is deeply flawed. I just can't believe that my compatriots are that thick. It's depressing.

"I just can't believe that my compatriots are that thick"

When you consider that 30% of them keep on voting labour, it's easy to believe they are thick!

She basically said: -

1. Immigrants steal British jobs.
2. Immigrants force British wages and salaries down.
3. Immigrants put "pressure" on public services.

Each, and every one, of these statements is a lie.

SoD

She said mass immigration hinders integration ehich makes life worse for everybody, which is true.

I cant stand the loathsome cow, but evn a stopped clock...

We over here learned yesterday morning courtesy of a popular blog-yes David I'm sorry to report there are others almost as popular as D&N- that directed us to the UK Daily Mail. Within was the account of a pitched battle in the Chunnel between law enforcement and immigrants aided by British leftists. Your Leftists are as barking mad as ours. Not to mention as equally unfamiliar with a bath.

Whitewall, the British leftists are on a death wish by facilitating the entry to Britain off Islamists who hate leftists and anyone else.

"Immigrants put "pressure" on public services."

It is sixty years since I did 'O' level economics but I remember that we spent some time on the laws of supply and demand. So, Lawrence, if you import lots of people, you increase the demand for houses, medical services, education, and sewers. If you don't increase the supply, then the price will rise to curtail the demand. You remind me of my step-daughter. She is an intelligent, well-educated mature lady holding down a tricky well paid job. She reads the Guardian and believes all sorts of interesting things - just like you.

Er... Lawrence, I cannot find the links but I recall reading in the London Evening Standard a few years ago that the large influx of immigrants in places such as Slough has put an intolerable strain on public services. As BoE says, it all comes down to supply and demand.

With regard to employment, they tend to take the jobs that many native Brits think are not worth doing. Benefit culture that expanded under Blair, plus a corresponding decline in work ethic has had a lot to do with this. A visit to the American Carwash in Belsize Road would illustrate the point perfectly. All the staff I encountered there were immigrants and in all the times I had my car cleaned there I didn't encounter a single native Brit.

Also, Blair's policy of multiculturalism has been a complete disaster. In conjunction with the huge numbers coming in - according to the BBC the latest figures stand at 503,000 people - lack of integration is causing a very big problem with large inner city areas being effectively colonised the inhabitants of which have little or no contact with the community at large. As someone who has driven a minicab in London, I can confirm from first hand observation that this has led to considerable racial tension in the East End between the immigrant and indigenous communities. If you add the large number of illegals - anything from 417,000 to 863,000 according to the latest figures, which include between 44,000 to 144,000 children born to undocumented migrants, then you have a real problem as none of these people will be able to seek legitimate employment and instead will be working illegally, slaving horrendous hours under sweatshop conditions for a pittance.

With regard to Theresa May (vile woman) I agree with your father completely. As he correctly says, she has been in charge of all this for the last five years and has done sweet F.A. to correct the situation.

That's 503,000 people per annum coming in by the way.

Who was in charge of immigration for the last five years?

Actually, it was the EU.

And that is really the whole point of Mrs. May's speech - it's to show potential "out" voters that the Tory Party "gets it".

You can believe her or not, as you wish, but that's why she said all that stuff.

Jimmy...do your lefties fit this link?
https://popehat.com/2015/10/06/this-royal-throne-of-feels-this-sheltered-isle-this-england/

I don't think all is lost. I read somewhere that the dumpy one has told six Balkan states that their migrants must go home. And the EU is piling on the pressure on the Africans to take their migrants back. In addition the EU naval forces in the Med are being beefed up and additional manpower is being sent to Greece and Italy to sort out the arrival procedures. Finally, the EU is having words with the Turks. No doubt the dumpy one will also sort out the Syrians from the rest, after all, she only invited them, not a whole lot of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis. No doubt the genuine Syrians will help her identify the non-Syrians!

BOE. If supply and demand go up, the price stays the same. Have you been to a hospital recently? You'll find the supply of healthcare has been increased by the immigrants themselves.

SoD

Richard. I've worked for at least three companies who doubled their turnover and headcount in a year. It's only the scumbag public sector that whinged about increasing output with more input, and the changes to their pretend jobs and working practices. You've fallen not just for the public sector "we can't do more for less" lie (imagine a capitalist saying that), but also for the "and we'll happily do the same, or even better less, for more, and blame Johnny Foreigner for it".

Nationalist Socialism at its lying worst.

SoD

Lawrence, who says supply and demand have both gone up? If they had, there wouldn't be a shortage of houses! As far as the NHS is concerned, the numbers of ethnic workers has just covered a reduction in native workers. No increase in supply. You can't import 4 million people and not put a strain on everything.

"As far as the NHS is concerned, the numbers of ethnic workers has just covered a reduction in native workers."

In other words, in spite of the extra money ploughed into the NHS, it hires no net increase in the number of workers of any creed, colour or nationality who might actually increase its output.

That's my point exactly: "We'll do the same, or less if we can get away with it, for more. But we won't do more for more, and never will we do more for less." The public sector, and monopoly corporate private sector, in a nutshell.

And worse still, they blame foreigners for it.

And as a final vile twist, they claim to be anti-racist.

SoD

You are missing the point completely Lawrence. It is not a question of doing more for less. It is trying to do the same with the same or similar funding when demands for the services in question are going through the roof. As BoE correctly implies, supply is failing to meet demand, the quality of service is declining and the root cause of the problem is all these extra people coming in without adequate funds being made available to cater for their needs.

What do you mean "without adequate funds being made available to cater for their needs"?

Do immigrants not pay tax on what they earn, and VAT on what they buy, and do the employers not pay their corporation tax on the profits they make from immigrants?

Not all immigrants are low income earners, I work with IT guys and girls who earn well and pay shedloads in tax and NI. What about all the doctors on £250k and nurses on £50k? What about the Uber cab drivers on £49k (not my words, the words of an Uber driver to me today)?

Honestly, I'm going to have to spell it out, aren't I (I kinda knew I would) ...

SoD

1. Immigrants steal British jobs.

Everyone who takes a job, makes a job. If you win a job contest, then it's because the employer thinks you can output more for the money than the other guy. So you get the wages, which you spend on food, clothing, shelter, health, education, energy, information, transport, fun, and savings / investments. Thereby you create another job equal to the value of your wages for the guy who you beat to your job. Plus, the capitalist who hired you makes a profit - and a greater profit than he would have made from the other guy, because that's why he hired you - which goes to make some proportion of another job.

So you took one job, and actually created 1 job plus zero point something of an extra job.


2. Immigrants force British wages and salaries down.

Immigrants come here because they'll earn more for what they do than they would elsewhere. So if you send them away, they'll still produce what they would produce, only they'll earn less doing it. Which means the goods and services they produce will cost less. Now if we have free trade, that means the goods and services they produce will compete more strongly with British goods and services, which means British wages will have to be lower than they would have been if the immigrants made the goods and services in Britain.

3. Immigrants put "pressure" on public services.

Say we have 1 rich expert, 10 middle income professionals, and 100 low income labourers. They contribute £111K per annum total for "public services" in the tax take. So £111K divided by 111 people equals £1000 each per annum on "public services".

Then 1 rich expert, 10 middle income professionals, and 100 low income labourers arrive, either through immigration or born and bred, it really doesn't matter.

So now we have £222K per annum in the annual tax take for "public services". Divided by 222 people. Guess what? £1000 each per annum on "public services".

Eat your heart out Adam Smith, John Stuart Mill, and Milton Friedman.

SoD

But, alas, Lawrence, life is not theoretical economic philosophy. Mixing very different societies and religions together is always fraught with danger. When the mixture occurs over a very short time scale and with massive numbers involved - then take cover!

Whitewall. Thanks for the link an enjoyable read. I think we are returning to the late seventies early eighties. The nasty left are re emerging with their shouting people down and throwing objects. They are confining Labour to the dustbin for another generation.
I do not do twitter or facebook but many of my old army colleagues do and they occasionally fall out with each other.
People seem to just write down immediately what they are thinking without giving it some previous thought.
The woman in question seems to be saying that only white people are rascist. Well she is employed in a British university so that kind of explains things.

Lawrence there is far too many people in the UK and we must stop Islamists getting here.
I think Theresa is a nice bit of totty. Just five years younger than me. What she says is just Tory policy.

Well now, at least you've admitted it: There is no valid economic argument against immigration.

Now we can move onto the social and political, and I think there are stronger arguments for immigration than against.

Here's some: -

Who has done more to curtail Islamist violence in Britain? Is it: -

(1) MI5, MI6, and the UK Police forces combined.
(2) Grumpy conservative Muslims trafficking their nutty Islamist offspring for self-extermination in Syria-Iraq.

Who has done more to curtail Islamist violence abroad? Is it: -

(1) Her Majesty's Armed forces combined with the armed forces of the Western world.
(2) Western people sharing their culture, attitudes, and mores through globalisation, immigration, and integration with the Islamic world.

And finally, ask yourself, which is the better price to pay for security in your cuddly Dorset fastness?

(1) Sending your young men and women to push up the daisies in the corner of a foreign field.
(2) Tolerate one extra "nig-nog next door" in the village, who gets on the phone to tell his family in bongo-bongo land how great Western culture, attitudes, and mores are, or, grumbles so much he traffics any son or daughter nutty enough to be an Islamist back to bongo-bong land for self-extermination.

The truth is, there is no valid economic, social, or political argument against immigration. And actually any arguments advanced on those lines are really a cover for racism at worst, xenophobia at best, and everything in between.

SoD

Lawrence you are just a naughty boy do listen to your father on occasion. A small nation with the huge population like Britain should not require immigrants and no one especially the EU should not dictate to us.

David, SoD?

Whitewall left a comment over on Malcolm's alerting me I might leave a link here - yeah David but don't be concerned, I'm taking care to visit every day ensuring D&N remains in the top 97.5% of the quadrillion-most clicked sites in the Blogiverse.

http://thosewhocansee.blogspot.com/2015/09/why-re-colonization-commonweal.html

David, SoD?

Whitewall left a comment over on Malcolm's alerting me I might leave a link here - yeah David but don't be concerned, I'm taking care to visit every day ensuring D&N remains in the top 97.5% of the quadrillion-most clicked sites in the Blogiverse.

http://thosewhocansee.blogspot.com/2015/09/why-re-colonization-commonweal.html

Well Whitewall I tried.

Typepad still SUCKS.

David, SoD?

Whitewall left a comment over on Malcolm's alerting me I might leave a link here - yeah David but don't be concerned, I'm taking care to visit every day ensuring D&N remains in the top 97.5% of the quadrillion-most clicked sites in the Blogiverse.

http://thosewhocansee.blogspot.com/2015/09/why-re-colonization-commonweal.html

This link was discovered by JK and posted on Malcolm Pollock's blog.. It deals with immigration, migration, the reasons and much much more. Nations are broken out as are regions. Past colonization is also discussed with charts. It is well done.
http://thosewhocansee.blogspot.com/2015/09/why-re-colonization-commonweal.html

Well hell JK, I am having trouble too. It is a fine piece of work about immigration, migration, colonization and much more. It is a good link for people in countries on the receiving end to understand. Here goes again..http://www.thosewhocansee.blogspot.com/

/

http://www.thosewhocansee.blogspot.com/

For the third time trying. Excellent link re immigration, migration, colonization and the why each species of people do what they do and what results and why.

Let me give you a very simple metaphor Lawrence. If you have a glass of water to yourself, then you get the whole glass. If you have to start sharing it, then there will be less water for you. The only ways to prevent this are 1) not inviting someone else to share or 2) providing extra water. This is very, very simple economics, and as sure as the law of gravity.

The net gain in population due to immigration, once the people who have left Britain are subtracted is around 230,000 people per annum. This requires the equivalent in housing and infrastructure of a city the size of Manchester to be developed every three years. Is this being done? The answer is a quite emphatic no. There is now a housing shortage which is sending prices sky high, the National Health Service (rapidly becoming the World Health Service)is becoming stretched to the limit, there are not enough school places and everything else from bin collection to public transport is starting to struggle in the places that these people are settling due to the extra demand. We are a small island and we simply cannot cope with these unprecedented numbers. Also these huge numbers are causing religious and cultural clashes with the indigenous population which is starting to affect our cohesiveness as a nation. I don't blame all these people for wanting to make a better life for themselves here, but a line has to be drawn somewhere. At the very least, we need an effective policy to determine who we want here and who we don't.

The answer is (2), Richard, the person with whom you are sharing provides the second glass of water.

SoD

Lawrence has provided Whyaxye with an answer.

Don't jump the gun, Lawrence, I haven't admitted anything. Yes, in theory, you could cram, say, another 10 million people onto this island but despite your fantastical economic theories the resulting death and destruction would take centuries to sort out and the end result would be a totally different land than that in which we live today.

So my question to you is simple, *exactly* how many people would you admit? My second question would be why would you set any limit at all? And if it was limitless, what sort of a country would England be? (You should bear in mind that the very many of the newcomers, of course, hate each other far more than they hate us and would be doing their best to wipe out their rivals!)

Oh no, don't tell me that civil war is actually good for economic growth!

Er... no Lawrence. Your argument seems to rest on the fact that everyone who is coming to live here is young and employable. The simple fact is that they are not. Such people who are in employment will have families consisting of both those too young to work and those who are too old. These people will need access to schools, doctors and in fact the whole range of public services plus infrastructure as well. The simple fact is that - to continue my metaphor - they are not bringing nearly enough water for their own needs and as a result there is not enough to go round.

The pro-immigration arguments of Lawrence and people like him depend on the migrants being Bangladeshi brain surgeons. Of course, few of them are, which explains why half of the Pakistani/Bangladeshi migrant males plus almost all the females are unemployed. However argument is futile, because he knows what he knows.

Popsy.

The great majority of people coming to the West are Westerners already. Not because they've lived here, but because for the last thirty years they've been brought up with near permanent exposure to the West through globalisation, the internet, and immigration (people returning or Skyping their family and friends to tell them what the West is all about).

And even if there had been an "Iron Curtain" separating "us" from "them", do you not think that humanity knows even from scant information what the West is all about? Did you actually re-read that article by Bernard Levin written over 30 years ago about the Eastern European family drowning in the Baltic trying to get to the West? The whole point of his essay was that even with an Iron Curtain, people know. And today, it's simply impossible not to know!

Speaking of knowing, how many immigrants do you actually know? Do you know what they are like? I do. I've lived with, worked with, befriended, and Loved them for thirty years. If, as I suspect, you, and most of the readership of D&N, know hardly any at all, and get your entire view from the Daily Mail, Ukip / BNP pamphlets, etc., then here's something to try: Go to London, and hire an Uber cabbie.

Last week I signed up for Uber and used them three times. A Somali, an Indian, and a Nigerian. All of them were more English, if you mean by English that culture of liberty, individualism, rule of law, anti-power, fairness, openness, than most English people I meet - certainly more English than the Ukip / BNP variety. They have come here because they've learned how to be Western, English even, and want to live that way. I was given as fine an outline of free market economics by the Indian chap than you could hope to find. I was told how proud the Nigerian was at not handling cash (Uber's system is cashless) so it's beyond proof that he pays his taxes and doesn't fiddle, "unlike the old established black cabs and minicabs" as he said - hahaha! And when I asked the Somali how much you can earn as an Uber cabbie he said around £49K in a year. His fare was half that of a London black cabbie, so imagine what the London cabbie earns. What sort of English fairness do London cabbies exude with a monopoly, licenced, rip off like that, let alone the tube drivers on £50K plus 50 days holiday? I mean, even the EU couldn't construct an institutionalized rip off like that without blushing.

The ones who don't like the West are desperately trying to go in the other direction in order to kill each other in the desert, or, the handful of Western haters who remain here are being marginalized into extinction, while at the same time sending the real nutters who would do actual violent harm back to the desert for extinction.

The war you talk about is all in your Daily Mail mind. You don't actually know any immigrants - apart from one - and when it comes to her, who would you rather have processing your new bedroom order, her, or a illiterate, innumerate, careless, laze ball, home grown chav?

I have come to realize that Englishness, Anglo-Saxonism, that thing is certainly a culture to which anyone can assume, but even that it might have a genetic predisposition. Yes, a few thousand years ago a rather large dominant presented around the Western Baltic and North German plain. We are an offshoot of that. But all around the world the Liberty gene presents, in mixed proportions. And now the siren call has gone out across the world through globalisation, the internet, and immigration, and the Banner men and women are marching to the their true homeland and colours.

And as much to the point the enemies are marching to theirs in the opposite direction.

The new Excalibur will glitter with many colours. And Mohamed, Raj, and Abioye will all be welcome at my new Round Table - after they've dropped me off in Islington.

SoD

David, you may have noticed above where JK attempted to post a link to a fabulous piece about immigration, migration, colonization and who is doing it and where they are going. It is posted successfully on Malcolm Pollack's site. Neither JK nor I could post it here for this thread as it seems Typepad must be having "emotional problems" or something. A shame.

Lawrence, your email correspondence does not make you the fount of all knowledge concerning people with foreign backgrounds. For the record I spent over twenty years in the Despatch Industry. This involved talking face to face to and dealing with people from pretty much every faith and background on a daily basis. This enabled me, and those like me, to pick up on a lot of stuff that most other people miss completely. My window on the world was the street. I think most people would agree that this gives a much clearer picture of what is going on than a combination of office walls, the internet plus the rose tinted fogged up telescope that comprises the Guardian Newspaper.

Well WW, let's try it another way. David, where it says "Read it here" and "here" is underlined.

http://malcolmpollack.com/2015/10/04/trust-our-strength-our-fatal-weakness/

Just read that article.

What a beaut of a conjuring trick.

The old "bore them to death with a stream of eye-catching observations, and then slip in the unsupported lie at the end when they're all asleep" trick.

Third from last paragraph: -

"But the outgroup-altruism which makes our nations so desirable may very well be on its way to killing us. When a family starves its own children in order to feed the neighbors', that family can safely be said to be on the road to extinction. As for the newcomers, as they start to replace us, all the things that drew them here will unfortunately slowly cease to exist."

Horseshit.

How about I say, as I did above: -

"And the outgroup-altruism which makes our nations so desirable may very well be on its way to saving us. When one family feeds its own children, bargaining its surpluses for its deficits with another family, those families can safely be said to be on the road to survival. As for the newcomers, as they start to replace us, all the things that drew them here will fortunately have grown and fully developed in them."

Long live the Liberty gene. And all who travel in her.

SoD

Lawrence, I note you did not mention Islamic immigrants who hate democracy and integration. Hardly a day goes by when one of them is arrested... The Glasgow Airport bombing attempt was the classic example of Islam. Educated doctors trying to blow people to bits and one of them who set himself on fire kicking out at a bloke trying to extinuish the fire and shouting allah akbar. Nutters, keep them out.

In Lawrence's wonderful fantasy multi-cultural world, there are no islamo-fascist nutters. So when his lovely Nigerian Uber driver turns out to be a member of Boko Haram and slits his throat in some dark corner - he will be totally amazed! Amazed I tell you!

Jimmy, I too want to keep them out, and kick out the ones already here.

The question is: What's the best way of doing it?

Here's a clue: -

(1) MI5, MI6, the UK Police: A few hundred in the nick.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/11546683/Islamist-extremists-in-prison-revolving-door-as-numbers-soar.html

(2) Grumpy conservative Muslims trafficking their Islamist offspring to self-service extermination in Syria / Iraq: 300-400, of whom 100-ish pushing up the daisies through the sand.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32026985

SoD

BOE, "multicultural world", who said I wanted one of those! Putting words in my mouth or what!

My point, or at least one of them, was how much I enjoyed being given a lecture on free market forces by an Indian, morality and anti-corruption by a Nigerian, and work ethic by a Somali. Doesn't seem to me like they need much mono-cultural Anglo-Saxon training, they've picked it all up quite nicely from globalisation, the internet, and immigration.

But, maybe you're right. Perhaps we ought to think about kicking out some of the home grown bigoted, anti-Libertarian, counter-Englishness, grumpy, conservative, pseudo-Anglo-Saxons. Yeah, those ungrateful descendants of immigrants, who don't deserve the Liberty and Democracy their immigrant forefathers fought for and shaped, both sides of the pond. That'd sharpen up Blighty and the West's mono-cultural credentials no end.

Where to begin? Ukip and BNP for starters,

SoD

Being English, I am a very tolerant person. So I wouldn't kick anyone out. I might stop any more coming in though. As to ethnic absorbtion of Ango-Saxon values, I hope yr right.

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