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Monday, 26 October 2015

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I don’t agree with Ms Daley. The levers of power have moved on leaving only the facade of democracy behind as a game for the nostalgic and soft-handed middle class loons.

Corbyn and Milne are fools, the only real threat they pose is if they become smart enough to leave UK politics and climb one of the many international greasy poles where the real power-brokers gather. Corbyn has left it too late of course - seems to be the story of his life.

Interesting viewpoint, Uncle, but I think you are writing off British parliamentary democracy too quickly despite the decades of EU diktat. In fact, I would suggest (hope? pray?) that it will be the EU that disintegrates first - note the Polish election results just in!

The absolutely crucial event in the next two years will be the referendum. If we VOTE LEAVE then Parliament will resume its place at the centre of British political life. However, that will still leave Corbyn & Co using 'any other means' to achieve their ends whilst ignoring the democratic process.

It is essential, in my view, that survivors of the coming purge of the parliamentary Labour party, plus any Lib_Dems left standing, plus any of the soppier sort of Tory Leftie, all get together and form a proper social democrat party of opposition. Let the rotting remains of Labour swing in the wind!

Sunlight is the best antiseptic. Lots of commentators are, like Ms. Daley, exposing what Corbyn and Milne etc. are up to. When people realise where their true interests lie, the "influence" of these clowns will fade and we will indeed see those electoral routs.

Corby's message is indeed seductive if you have nothing to lose but your student debt, a bullshit job, and a bed in a dismal London flat. But unless Osborne totally screws up the economy, or a huge economic catastrophe strikes out of nowhere, such people are in the minority.

I think the current practitioners of politics have done quite enough to discredit the whole process without any assistance from Corbyn and his KGB sponsored mates.

The EU is in fine form and it is starting to look as if there may be enough serial f@@k ups between now and referendum day to persuade a diffident GBP that out really is the safer option.

A significant number of more moderate labourites will as you say almost certainly form a left of centre opposition party which will with a bit of luck force Cameron to move rightwards, most likely a good thing.

I hope I am not mistaken but it seems to me unlikely that the internal machinations of one party will overthrow the entire system, particularly now that the parties are so widely despised.

Let's not forget after the labour party's long overdue demise, that they in their century or so on the political stage, achieved nothing to improve the lot of the common man. The great steps forward were made before they appeared, and it was labour itself who has done more than any political organisation in this country to hold back the "emancipation" of people of humble origin and make life worse for everybody.

Good bloody riddance.

Quite agree with Cuffley and as you say David look at the Poles, they got rid of the USSR and walked into another one. My guess is that "events dear boy events" will take over, taking the political aspect of the EU back to square one. Greece,Portugal, Spain and then Italy held together by Germany and don't make me laugh France. Dominoes anyone?

Very interesting thread here. Sounds quite familiar re Leftist m/o.

Just because Corbyn's labour party doesn't mind whether it's elected or not, doesn't mean it won't get elected, or is unelectable. After all, Corbyn himself stood on a principled "I'm not expecting to get elected and I don't care if I'm not" basis - and got elected.

The Northerners, public sector, Sweaties, chavs, youf, ex-melons showing their true colour, and Guardian readers, will still vote for them. That's at least enough to get the same seats they've got now. And as someone said above, if Osborne drops a bollock, or there's a shock, that could swing it.

We need to keep treating them as the opposition, and most definitely NOT hoping for the Tories to split into Social Democrat and Conserative parties - whereupon the Soc Dems and Corbyn's labour will be able to form the coalition from hell. The only thing that would prevent such a coalition from hell destroying Blighty would be the rules and regs of continued EU membership.

No, we need to keep treating them like the opposition, until such time their unelectability is proven beyond doubt by an actual election.

SoD

"The only thing that would prevent such a coalition from hell destroying Blighty would be the rules and regs of continued EU membership."

Oh, I see, you mean the Kaiserin sticking her hand up the back of 'Junck the Drunk's jacket and telling him to tell us what we can or cannot do!

Yeah, well, good luck with that one, SoD!

"Oh, I see, you mean the Kaiserin sticking her hand up the back of 'Junck the Drunk's jacket and telling him to tell us what we can or cannot do!"

Well yes actually. Given the choice ...

(1) A neo-Thatcherite (lightly filtered by a token ineffective soft lefty)
(2) Corbyn
(3) Corbyn filtered by a Soc Dem coalition

... I know which I'd prefer.

SoD

SoD Fuck me a neo Thatcherite where? who?

Lawrence, whichever toe-rag from your three options is in government is completely irrelevant when you set it against the fact that the legislative body in Great Britain MUST be directly accountable to an electorate that has the power to vote them out of office should their performance not meet with their approval. What I find deeply disturbing is that currently, approximately 75% of our legislation comes from European bureaucrats who lack any sort of mandate to legislate. Even a cursory look at the history of the 20th century should reveal why I (and many like me)are getting so concerned. If Merkel and Juncker want to put legislation on the British statute book, I would have no problems with that at all, PROVIDED they had stood for election first and that a sufficient number of British voters had given them a democratic mandate to do so.

@Peter

"SoD Fuck me a neo Thatcherite where? who?"

The Kaiserin - Angela Merkel. Austerity and budget surplus generation to the point of breaking the rules on generating surpluses (in Germany's case), and monetary control to the point of deflation (also a bit of a rule breaker).

If anything, perhaps a tad over-zealous on the Thatcherism - just what's needed to counter Corbyn or a Corbyn Soc Dem coalition.

SoD

@ Richard

We voted in the politicians who signed the treaties that mean they rubber stamp the legislation from Brussels, so the politicians we voted in can put their feet up and do not a lot. But it's not undemocratic if the Brit people choose, and keep choosing, to do that.

Are you sure you'd be ok with it if the politicians who do the actual legislation in Brussels (that then gets rubber stamped in Blighty) were also elected by us? So if there was a European constitution, with presidential election and legislative body election, and Westminster relegated to a federal state parliament, you're ok with that?

How about the Ukippers who whinge about the unelected status of the EU legislators? If there was a federal republic of Europe with all the separations of powers configured in theory and practice, with regional matters taken care of in Westminster, would you also be happy with that?

If not, why are you complaining about the lack of democratic quality of the EU legislative body? It's not exactly being transparent to posit such a "straw man" criticism: Effectively saying we don't like such and such, but even if you fix it, we still don't like it.

Why not come clean and say there's no logical argument against the EU, you just don't like it from a gut instinct point of view. No reform or other change will ever be good enough. And just leave it at that? (Rather boring, I grant you, because there'd be nothing to argue about).

SoD

"Why not come clean and say there's no logical argument against the EU, you just don't like it from a gut instinct point of view. No reform or other change will ever be good enough. And just leave it at that? (Rather boring, I grant you, because there'd be nothing to argue about)"

Finally you've got the point.

Interesting you can describe the EU as Thatcherite?

WHats that loud humming noise? That must be the poor dear lady spinning in her grave.

The EU is a bloated bureaucracy governed by nobodies, in a corporatist franco-german clusterfuck.

At the moment you confuse it with being thatcherite (it is true she was a centraliser but centralising on London not Brussels) and once she realised the truth of the what the EEC as it then would have been was all about, she was rabidly, and quite rightly opposed to it.

The EU's austerity is more about managing the ECB to suit German interests than it is a principled political position. You can be sure that once it suits Frankfurt to have looser policies the music would change overnight. But it needn't because now they think they have the rest of Europe where they want it.

The Germans don't have to fork out the massive subsidies which should be required to keep a properly functioning single currency area going, and the Germans have a nice undervalued currency and can run trade surpluses to their hearts content. Furthermore, due to hysteresis in the the southern european economies, especially Italy whose industrial infrastructure is being hollowed out, they are knocking thier manufacturing competitors out of the game and they think, shoring up their position as pre-eminent manufacturer in Europe, which is what they like because it doesn't require too much imagination, and the Italians would be their main competitor. France is also a competitor and is getting it in much the same way as Italy, while the UK does it to itself through gold plated EU regulations and insanely stupid energy policy and general malign neglect.

But, SoD, please continue to believe that they're just a bunch of free market liberals who want nothing better than genuinely free competition unhindered by stupid corrupt government.

Believe on why don't you, by the way, do you want to buy a bridge?

At the some the wheels will have to come off as it is simply unsustainable

Lawrence,
Let me put this into one short sentence.

"No taxation - or legislation - without representation."

It really is as simple as that.

For fuck's sake.

We have a Tory majority, 100bn deficit, and they can't even get their tax credits reform through our ludicrous parliamentary system.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11954740/Tax-credits-Government-faces-defeat-in-the-House-of-Lords-live.html

If that's the best our state can do to live with its means with the most right wing electable party in power, imagine what the opposition would be like.

I'm totally sick of it. Utterly pathetic. If you won't let Merkel do what this country needs, then I hope the markets turn on Britain good and proper.

SoD

SoD - you're right about the tories, but wrong that things would be better if we were governed from Brussels even more than we already are.

Why not from Washington DC? Or Santiago. Or peking?

Do you want us to join the euro FFS?

What Lawrence does not seem to realise is that it is not a matter of his or any other individual's perceived views on whether a politician is good or bad, or whether a decision is right or wrong. What matters is that the will of the people should prevail. I always recognised that Blair was a complete and utter charlatan and felt that something had gone badly wrong when he was elected in 1997. However, Labour won with a landslide vote and although I strongly disagreed with the electorate, I respected the democratic process. After all, the man had been given a mandate by the British people to form a government. Merkel and Juncker do not have any such mandate at all.

Winston Churchill probably had a lot of sympathy with Lawrence's position when he stated, "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." However, the difference between him and Lawrence seems to be that he recognised that government was always accountable to the people and that their will should always prevail. When he heard the news that he had lost the 1945 election he remarked, "They have a perfect right to kick me out. That is democracy."

What I probably find most disturbing of all is that someone of Lawrence's undoubted intelligence and experience fails to recognise that people in positions of power should always be held accountable for their actions and that under our system of government they are answerable to the people. Merkel and Juncker do not seem to be answerable to anyone at all.

Lawrence,
I realise that I have not answered an important point you made in an earlier post.

"sure you'd be ok with it if the politicians who do the actual legislation in Brussels (that then gets rubber stamped in Blighty) were also elected by us? So if there was a European constitution, with presidential election and legislative body election, and Westminster relegated to a federal state parliament, you're ok with that?"

I regard the EU as an utterly corrupt institution that serves the interests of Germany. I do not recognise their right to impose legislation on any sovereign nation without a democratic mandate being given to them by the people of the nation in question.

However, any and all of these eurocrats are most welcome to come to the U.K. and stand for election as members of parliament. If enough of them get elected to form a government, I will respect the will of the British people who elected them and recognise their right to act as the principal legislative body. If the British people vote via referendum to dissolve Parliament for good and to cede ALL legislative power to Europe, I will respect that decision as well, despite the fact that I bitterly disagree with it.

However, when hard-won freedoms and powers are ceded to Europe by politicians, WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF THE PEOPLE, I do not recognise the legitimacy of such actions, whatever political party carried them out.

"Do you want us to join the euro FFS?"

I am giving serious thought to adding another outcome option to my list. Not sure where it rates yet, but here's the title: -

(?) The Lion has landed. Is that Motte really as unassailable as we think? Or shall we fill the breach woth our English dead and sack the place? ...

More later when this pesky thing called work is out of the way,

SoD

"The end of the Merkel era is within sight", according to Gideon Rachman (always worth reading!) in the FT this morning:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/477cdd7a-7997-11e5-933d-efcdc3c11c89.html#axzz3pkwyPWom

Not definite but a possibility. If so, who - and what - follows?

Yeeessss!

SoD

Been listening to Dan Carlin's history of the Mongols podcast series, "Wrath of the Khans", recently.

Having slaughtered his way through China, the ME, Russia (bloody hell Alexey, I didn't know quite how much they scuffed you up; seems that adage that Russia has a poor away record but a clean sheet at home needs a bit of revisionism), and finally Eastern Europe to achieve the greatest empire ever. The Western Europeans were left quaking in their boots with nothing between the Khan and the Atlantic. No doubt there were Ukipper types in Blighty saying we should pull up the 21 mile draw bridge and hope for the best.

And then the Khan died. And "pouff", gone, lost, like tears in the rain. And a Europe left with the door wide open, a gaping breach, for Blighty to bustle in ...

SoD

Instead of listening to Carlin, SoD, you should be listening to 'our Nige' who once again waxed lyrical at the EU talking shop:

"This is the modern day implementation of the Brezhnev Doctrine. This is exactly what happened to states living inside the USSR . What is being made clear here with Greece and indeed with Portugal is that a country only has democratic rights if it’s in favour of the [European] project. If not, those rights are taken away. And perhaps none of this should surprises us as Mr. Juncker has told us before: there can be no democratic choice against the European treaties. And the German Finance Minister, Mr. Schäuble, has said: elections change nothing – there are rules. I think for anyone that believes in democracy, Portugal should be the final straw. It should be the warning that this project, [in order to] to protect itself and all its failings, will destroy the individual rights of peoples and of nations. My country has always believed in parliamentary democracy so strongly that twice in the last century it risked everything to fight for parliamentary democracy, not just for Britain but for the rest of Europe too. And I actually believe that for all of us that believe in democracy and want to see it reimplemented, the British referendum offers a golden opportunity.”

Hat tip to Guido

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