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Thursday, 03 November 2016

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And politicians HATE to be put on the spot over anything. Especially when they have no cover.

I commented on this on earlier post before reading this one. Times are a changing as that old lefty song states. Ignore the "will of the people" at your own risk should be posted on the wall of every pollies office.

AussieD, did you manage to get a comment on Diplomad's blog yet? He still can't get his blog roll to show.

G'day Whitewall.

No success. The comment would no longer be relevant so I have let it slide.

I'm glad the Gaffer rates the the rule of law above the "lawless dictatorship of the Plebs", as AEP puts it: -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/11/03/supremacy-of-parliament-is-the-whole-point-of-brexit/

But it is shocking how many senior country bumpkin pols don't. We now see who the true subversives of the principles of a democratic system - separation of powers, rule of law - actually are: Hannon, IDS, Tebbit.

Ref putting the pols on the spot: They'll all be able to say they are pro-Brexit, but some will be soft and some will be hard Brexit. So there's no difficulty for the "ex-Remainer now soft Brexiteer" pols. An election would be no problem also, a majority of soft Brexiteers will dominate parliament.

So a Norgie model will likely dominate negotiation strategy, and the xenophobes will have had their 15 minutes of notoriety.

SoD

I see myself as a typical Leave voter. I didn't vote for hard exits or soft ones. I didn't vote for continuing to contribute to the EU coffers and I didn't vote for Poles to live and work here. I voted for OUT! What is so hard to understand about that?

Sanguine, eh? Aussies don't do sanguine!
I think it's strictly a Pommie thing and a good thing too!

SoD, if you are going to quote then do so accurately. A E-P did NOT say "lawless dictatorship of the Plebs". What he did say, in full, was:

"The elemental purpose of Brexit is and has always been to restore the supremacy of Parliament - and to return legal authority to British courts - not to introduce a lawless dictatorship of plebiscites."

Unfortunately he was wrong. It was Parliament itself which voted 6-1 to pass the decision on whether or not to leave the EU to the people. So, on that specific issue, they voluntarily gave up their supreme power and handed it back to the people. The people have now spoken and the only job for parliament now is to implement the decision.

I do hope and pray that we will not follow the European practice of asking their people to decide in or out and when they come up with the 'wrong' answer, they ask them again until they get it 'right'! There-in lies my detestation of all things European!

Andra, I though Aussies drank sanguine - by the pint!

Thanks Duffers you have cheered me up. The court verdict was worrying me but you have explained that it does not portend all doom and gloom for us Brexiteers and Conservatives. I agree with SoD's anaysis(damn that's a first) that we are going to get no further with Brexit than Efta/EEA membership as the house now and in the future can only ever have a soft Brexit majority. I will be content with that on the basis it is better than what we have now.

Gaffer,

Parliament did NOT tie itself into a legal commitment to leave the EU in the act that instigated the referendum. So the referendum act was unlike the proportional representation act that Clegg put through parliament for the referendum on that matter a couple of years back. That act did tie parliament into implementing PR if the electorate had voted for it (which the electorate did not).

Dave Cam did say he would trigger article 50 himself, but, (1) He changed his mind, and (2) He would have been in breach of constitutional law if he had tried to trigger article 50 without first getting the assent of parliament, as we now know from the High Court.

Anti,

EFTA / EEA / Norgie model-ish territory is the best strategic ground for Blighty. That was my preferred position, even better than being in the EU. I just didn't think it possible, and being cautious, I opted for Remain.

From EFTA / EEA / Norgie model we get full on single market access, AND the ability to sign FTA's with the rest of the world. The xenophobes get a rightful poke in the eye, and I keep my right to live and work anywhere in Europe.

And also, so long as someone makes sure the article 50 equivalent on that new agreement is to the taste of the hard Brexiteers i.e. it's crystal clear, and we can get out if the EU goes tits up on a favourable process to us, then the hard Brexiteers should not be too crestfallen. Hard Brexit remains an option, and we'll be in a much stronger position if we activate it, having designed the exit process and already with FTA's with the rest of the world.

We can unite on this.

BOE,

You were all in favour of lots of Poles being here when they were chucking Spitfires and Hurricanes around the sky over Kent to keep you free, you ingrate.

And what about your fellow citizens who are enjoying their rights to live, work, and retire in Europe - the Europe their forefathers set free? No thoughts for them. No due process, rule of law, parliamentary democracy for them.

Makes you wonder why our forefathers ever bothered to fight for our freedom, rights, and futures.

SoD

SoD, you have written some good comments here and they are interesting to me from "over here". But this has an odd sound as I reflect on recent history:
"And what about your fellow citizens who are enjoying their rights to live, work, and retire in Europe - the Europe their forefathers set free? No thoughts for them. No due process, rule of law, parliamentary democracy for them.

Makes you wonder why our forefathers ever bothered to fight for our freedom, rights, and futures."

Liberation or conquest?

"You were all in favour of lots of Poles being here when they were chucking Spitfires and Hurricanes around the sky over Kent to keep you free, you ingrate."

I think its a bit rich comparing Battle of Britain pilots with plumbers etc. I would also point out that the reason they were over here was that we had gone to war with the Krauts on their behalf.

Anyway, how do you know I was in favour? I was 4 at the time. As usual you are just giving your opinion and as usual its wrong. Keep plugging, keep your record clean and consistent.

Whitewall you're not having memory problems now ... thinking of fish or sumpin?

Remember me yesterday replying to SoD, "No shit"? Remember why?

SoD's off his meds bear in mind.

JK I seem to be having memory problems most days. Always thinking of fishing.

"Parliament did NOT tie itself into a legal commitment to leave the EU in the act that instigated the referendum".

Quite right, SoD, but what it did do on this particular occasion, with a 6-1 majority, was hand over its power to the people and ask them to decide. Nobody forced them to do it, it was just Dim Dave losing his nerve under the threat from UKIP. Nevertheless, the people provided an answer that they had requested and did so with an enormous turnout and a clear majority. Now it is back to Parliament to execute the instruction THEY asked for.

I would add that had the vote gone the other way, I would have been as sick as the proverbial parrot - but I would have accepted it. Why can't you?

I do accept it for what is was: A non-binding advisory from the people to the parliament - with a bit of Dave Cam BS tacked on the end.

If parliament endorses it, even if parliament endorses hard Brexit, I'll accept it, so long as it follows due process and respects the rule of law and the constitutional mores.

I'll still moan, mind, and there's nothing wrong with fighting back politically with legitimate means. At the moment recent polls are saying that the majority doesn't even want to leave the EU: -

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-poll-majority-uk-remain-eu-theresa-may-article-50-second-referendum-latest-a7395811.html

If that sentiment can find due process to return to the EU, then so be it.

My personal preference would be for soft Brexit, as said. With CETA, TTIP (if the EU gets it, or we could do it direct with the US), and the single market as the immediate starter, plus all the FTA's we could sign over the next few years, the country would go through the roof economically.

To keep the country bumpkins happy, for, say, an extra £5bn a year, the Euros could probably be bribed into letting us set a quota of 100,000 per annum.

You know what we could do then? No bureaucrats and pols setting numbers of doctors, teachers, programmers, whatever, no fk that. No, simply put the 100,000 work permits on eBay, I personally guarantee you'd double your money.

We could then use the surplus for special reserved areas in the English hinterland for folks with a penchant for going "ooh, arrr", wearing straw hats, and use string to hold their trousers up, so they would never have to speak to a Polish person again. Like the American Indian reservations. Happy bumpkins.

Oh, for some reason, I've just thought of one of the great moments from Blazing Saddles. Must be the serotonin sploshing around some old synapses where it ain't been for a while, or something: -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boO4RowROiw

There are many, many things I have to thank you for, Pater. But taking me to see The Holy Grail, The Life of Brian, and Blazing Saddles in the Sunningdale fleapit in the 1970's is definitely on the podium.

SoD

You seem to forget, SoD, that it takes two to tango! Firstly, I keep trying to remind you of the depth of anti-British feeling across huge swathes of Europe, particularly the ruling classes. Put simply, they detest us and if they can harm us or humiliate us, they will. Secondly, they will not allow any dilution of the rules and regs that define the EU.

Thus, my guess is that it will be a 'hard' Brexit in that we will be offered nothing by the EU, except, of course, where their import tariffs are concerned which will be reciprocated by HMG if they fail to offer a deal. Cue: shrieks from German auto-makers and French wine exporters.

And remember, when the referendum was voted on in 1975 we were supposed to be joining a common market not a foreign country ruled by power-mad pols who are delighted to do us down!

SoD is your opprobrium of those who voted for their freedom from over-regulation by a bunch of unelected posers who hate the UK just to stir someone up? In which case you are often successful.

If it is not you are demonstrating the common trait of those who consider others who do not agree with them as somehow being simpletons and in need of "guidance". It is a fatal mistake to under-estimate your opposition as they often turn out to be a lot smarter that you think.

Just an observation from someone who spent 34 years of their adult life having to assess the abilities of my possible opponents.

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