Going to the moon was a doddle compared to this

I am greatly indebted to Mr. Silvio Canto, Jr, who, via The American Thinker, has kicked off my fascination with one of the most incredible stories in the whole of human history.  My pleasure in being given this kick in the shins reminder of the almost unbelievable courage and fortitude of the human race is only marred by my disgraceful ignorance of the subject.  We humans have much to be ashamed of but from time to time there occur actions of super-heroic proportions that leave one humbled.  In writing this post I am all too aware that it will result in much eye-ball rolling amongst my American readers, but, hey, I'm just a dim, dumb Brit and thus I have more than enough history to keep me occupied.

Anyway, after all that waffle let me come to the point.  I am referring to the good ship, Mayflower, and its stupendous - or was it just plain stupid? - voyage from England to America in 1620.  I do realise that the Atlantic had been crossed many a time and oft' before 1620 but in the main this dangerous journey was undertaken for that most fundamental of human motives - profit!  This contrasts with the voyage of the Mayflower which, whilst the ship-owners were in it for the money, the bulk of the 102 passengers were, in effect, Puritan refugees fleeing the attentions of the Church of England!  Well, the C of E might have been a bit fierce in those days but it was nothing to what the passengers of the Mayflower faced both on board and on land in a freezing Massachusetts' winter. Suffice to say that the death rate was enormous, roughly half of them perished.

I have had a quick read of the relevant Wiki entry but if anyone can recommend a good history of this event I would be very grateful.

 

Comments

[Whitewall]

David, this article speaks to the good that "Colonialism" often brings. The positive benefits can last generations and even centuries! The Puritans brought, for good or ill, the new Protestant Reformation which lingers today. The first English attempt at settlement in "America" was on the North Carolina Outer Banks in the mid 1580s where the first English child was born---Virginia Dare---was her name. This colony was "Lost" to history and was eventually succeeded by Jamestown Settlement in Virginia in 1607. It took, barely.

[Whitewall]

OT...

Richard, if you stop by...
https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2017/09/18/is_the_eu_anywhere_near_getting_its_own_army_112314.html

[Loz]

Mmm, might be a few more Mayflowers over the coming years ...

SoD

[Whitewall]

SoD
If yer commin' over, come on!

[Loz]

One of the little observations I adored in Boston was the layout of the pews in the Old Meeting House ...

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=boston+meeting+house+pews - then switch to images in google

They all sat facing inwards in their family and voluntary friendship groups, not lined up and coerced into facing some pompous prelate on a plinth. The back they turned on authoritarianism in getting there wasn't going to turn again on arrival!

That really tells you all you need to know about the who, what, why, when, where of America.

Until recently.

The very exhortation this crowd cannot comprehend ...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KHbzSif78qQ

SoD

[Peter G]

Why don't you ask the aboriginals about the good colonialism brings whitewall. As to the Puritans, they fled, ostensibly, religious persecution so they could found a home where they themselves could be the persecutors. Which they proceeded to do in spades. Search as you will, there is no Puritan document that preaches religious tolerance. On the contrary you couldn't get much more intolerant than a Puritan. That's why they are Puritans.

You might want to watch Ken Burns new documentary on the Vietnam war. American involvement in the war started as an attempt to restore French colonialism in Vietnam. For some reason the benefits of colonialism seem to have escaped the Vietnamese too.

[Bob]

Talk about authoritarian. Silvio Canto writes the decisions by communities to remove statues are illegitimate because - what? His simplistic view of the colonization of the Americas reminds me of my grade school history texts. Several times he goes out of his way to trash talk like a grade school kid. There is no bottom to the barrel, is there?

I read several college level histories of the times years ago and don't remember the names, and you probably couldn't find them anyway. However, the Wiki on Columbus will give you some insight as to what he was like:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus

[David Duff]

WARNING: For some unknown reason my E-mail Inbox is not showing any incoming mail, although comments are appearing here. SoD assures me he will be onto the job this evening - yeeees, quite!

By the by, on the subject of intolerance it is good to see Peter with a subject he actually knows about!

[Loz]

"As to the Puritans, they fled, ostensibly, religious persecution so they could found a home where they themselves could be the persecutors. Which they proceeded to do in spades. Search as you will, there is no Puritan document that preaches religious tolerance. On the contrary you couldn't get much more intolerant than a Puritan. That's why they are Puritans."

Once you've doubted authority, the hypocrisy of asserting your own gnaws away at you until it gives way to greater things.

Even in the first few years the blatantly obvious was served up by a few, albeit persecuted, individuals: -

http://peopleof.oureverydaylife.com/did-puritans-support-religious-toleration-5329.html

Once the Libertarian cat's got a paw out of the bag, not long before there ain't no cat in the bag.

About 150 years after the first Puritan foot met sand, in the case of the US of A.

SoD

[Whitewall]

David, I sent you a corker last night late. Hope it showed up!

[David Duff]

Alas, Whiters, no, but I have every confidence that SoD will find it!

[Whitewall]

"Why don't you ask the aboriginals about the good colonialism brings whitewall."

Well, in a little while after we finish lunch, I will most certainly ask some "aboriginals" about this. But only if the table service is up to my expectations and the chef does his usual bang up job with our lunch. I tip well when a proper touch of feudal spirit is shown.

[Michael F Adams]

Squanto traveled to England, was educated there, and then returned to his tribe in Massachusetts, but they were all dead. Fishermen had been plying the waters off Cape Cod, coming ashore for nookie and fresh water, and leaving nasty germs behind. (Although nobody knew about germs, of course.) The isolated Indigenous, with little exposure and therefore little resistance to these new germs, possibly measles or smallpox, died so fast that there was almost nobody left to bury the dead. Squanto, speaking English and knowing something about New England weather and agriculture, was a serious resource. When his adopted tribe came to the first Thanksgiving feast in New England, they negotiated a peace treaty with the Separatists,* that endured until after the death of everyone who was at the feast that day.

Since I am from the South, where inter-tribal relations are so common as to be utterly unremarkable, (And that intermarriage figures prominently in my family tree, as for nearly all Southerners)I can't say much more on the subject. Oh, BTW, Pompous will tell us, there were wars between Europeans and Indigenous in the South, but far less commonly than wars among the various tribes.

*The Puritans came later. The Pilgrims were not Puritan, but Separatist.Same general theology but wanted to withdraw from the Cof E, rather than to take it over and change it. Naturally, this was a big step toward the idea of freedom of religion.

[Bob]

It turns out some of the descendants of natives are still around and expressing opinions:

https://indiancountrymedianetwork.com/history/events/nice-day-for-a-genocide-shocking-quotes-on-indians-by-us-leaders-pt-1/

[Peter G]

Whitewall reminds me of Jon Stewart, the late night comedian who famously joked that he intended to invite all his New York neighbors over for Thanksgiving dinner. And then murder them and steal their land.

I am curious to know what part of the South that Mr Adams lives that celebrates such brotherhood with the native residents. It sure as hell wasn't the South East from which area Andrew Jackson had them all expelled. Did he mean the South West? Surely not? Most of the resident natives there are subject to random stops by such as Sheriff Arpaio. Virtually all the people Americans like to call Mexicans are aboriginals who speak Spanish. And we all know how much they are loved.

[Whitewall]

Michael Adams is a Texan and I am a North Carolinian. Andrew Jackson did not expel all the 'native residents'. The amount of cross pollination between native Indians and Anglo-European settlers(colonists) is quite extensive. It continues today.

[Loz]

Gaffer,

The Outlook problem seems to be at Microsoft's end, they've fkd up something in the data centre again ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41306441

Best just wait a bit and you'll probably get deluged with a back log of email tomorrow sometime,

SoD

[TheBigHenry]

David,

In my opinion, the exemplar for human endurance and bravery was that of the Russian people at Stalingrad.

"Stalingrad: The Fateful Siege, 1942-1943" by Antony Beevor

[JK]

Eh Pompous?

I suppose we'll just have to wait for the DnA?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/21/science/two-surprises-in-dna-of-boy-found-buried-in-siberia.html

As Richard's convincingly pointed out in the last couple day's posts you're as most of us are, convinced you're Summa Cum Laughable graduated "all the most rigorous Unis," I offer you the opportunity to further Your Omniscience?

There'll be no text-blocked record (although Pompous you might wish to indelibly write on the back of your hand - "Human") so, none of us Shall grade Pompous on His "agreement" with the 'so far.'

[JK]

Regards Pompous your above:

"Why don't you ask the aboriginals about the good colonialism brings[?]"

[Hank]

David

For more than you want to know.
https://www.themayflowersociety.org/the-pilgrims
(To get my mother off my back I sent in life member dues.)

The “official line” is that they were nonconformists, the Puritans came to Boston 1630. Yuk yuk.

A poetic version,
http://eclecticmeanderings.blogspot.com/2005/11/why-dont-you-speak-for-yourself-john.html
The family blames all it’s bad genes on Jack and Prissy.

[David Duff]

Thank you, Hank, for that link to The Mayflower Society and, obviously, your mother knew best - they always do!

[missred]

Oh good grief, the idiot north of the 48th parallel continues to show his ignorance of just about everything from the real reason the US was invited by S.Vietnam, to the culture of the southern areas of the US. Yet that doesn't seem to stop him spewing forth his pearls.
(sorry, just had to say it)

[Richard]

A very interesting article Whiters.

I would absolutely love it to be true. Unfortunately though, I have developed an annoying habit of reading between the lines, and in this case, I'm afraid that there are one or two things that don't add up.

In his recent 'State of the Union' speech, Junck the drunk stated that by 2025, the EU needed a fully fledged European defence union. Now, for that to happen, they would need integrated forces, air, sea and land, as much standardisation of kit as possible, with centralised logistics and command structures. Now, I accept the central thrust of your article, which argues that they cannot do all that now, but 2025 isn't now is it? A look back into history reminds us that the piddling post Versailles Weimar German army morphed into the extremely potent Wehrmacht within a similar time frame. As it has happened before, I see no reason why that sort of scenario couldn't happen again, but this time, with a Euro force.

Am I wrong? I bloody well hope so, but looking back at recent British defence policy, there are a number of things that make no sense at all. Why commission two large aircraft carriers when we no longer have enough frigates and destroyers to protect them? Why get rid of the Nimrod aircraft that were an integral part of the Royal Navy's anti submarine defences? Why gut the army to a level where it can only field a brigade, and can no longer operate as an independent force? All of these measures only make any sense at all if the intention was to operate as a subordinate part of a homogenised European force that could supply the components we lacked. Only a few years back I recall there were even reports in the papers of joint Euro force exercises taking place on Salisbury Plain.

However, now Brexit is upon us and our reduced forces are now revealed as being completely inadequate and incapable of carrying out their assigned roles. Am I being paranoid here? Is an integrated Euro force just a pipe dream or is it planned?

P.S. Lawrence, if you are reading this, I'd love to hear your opinion.

[Whitewall]

"P.S. Lawrence, if you are reading this, I'd love to hear your opinion."

Agreed!

[Loz]

A lot of the EU kit is standardized anyway.

Most everyone's got Leopards as MBT's, for example (the Swiss, albeit outside of the EU, have got more Leopard MBT's than Blighty has Challenger MBT's - the Swiss, ffs!).

The non-standards tend to be the larger states, like France, for example they have their own MBT: The Leclerc, but being large means they've got their own logistics to support the non-standard kit.

The ex-Ostblokkers have still got a load of old ex-Soviet junk they need rid of any replacing, so there's a deal to be done licensing the Leopard and other EU standard gear for manufacturing locally to keep the jobs in Poland, Hungary, etc.

This is the sort of stuff the EU does really well. Lining their ducks up. "System, system, system!" I mean if they can dive down to the nitty-gritty of straightening cucumbers in order to reduce the packing and transport costs of vegetables for the hoi-polio, I'm sure they can manage standardization of weapons and logistics.

The political will is there too. Maybe leave each state with its own militia system in parallel, for part timers and nationalists who want to be soldiers but not for the EU. That throws a sweetener to them in exchange for grudging support of a supra-national EU force. They can have all the discarded old crap to bugger about with in the woods at the weekends. And in the event of a massive invasion type threat, having local militia / partisan forces in each state comprised of weekend warriors and nationalist country-bumpkin nutters, as well as a metro EU wide force with the latest and greatest gear, would give any future Putin pause to think!

I think the club medders - the Sud Front - would go for the type of forces suitable for non-linear warfare. They're already doing stuff in Libya and wheeling and dealing with the militias on the south side of the med. Leopard tanks not much use there. Hairy ex-North Africans with not a lot to do and appreciative of a full wallet might come in handy to staff up this southern force - and the club medders have got plenty of them! "Here you go Mo, take that boat full of weapons of minor destruction back across the med from whence you came and scuff the Hairies up for twenty years. We'll give you a full wallet, citizenship, and a tasty retirement pension." Yeees, Massser!

The ex-Ost Blokkers, Krauts, Frogs, and Nordics will do the big Panzer divisions, satellites, nukes, air cover, Blitzkrieg linear warfare thing and face off Putin - The Ost Front. Putin and his successors are bright enough to give that a wide berth!

I doubt they'll bother with a West Front. I mean, it's not as if there's much to worry about coming from that direction, as we all know!

SoD

[Whitewall]

SoD, nice job and I can even understand it! In your scenario, wouldn't NATO be quite often "under foot"?