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Friday, 16 March 2018

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Congratulations on the overall quality of the post, David. However, some nitpicking is in order. As you've pointed out, America is a relatively young country. Since it is so diverse and also because it's based on law and shared principles but little shared history, it's also one that's been through worse extremes of unrest. Added together white nationalist movements, BLM, #Metoo, student protestors, immigrants, crooked leaders, propagandistic media, widespread philosophical disagreements and all our other problematic features don't get even close to the existential threat posed by our Civil War. We'll continue to move forward, work out our current problems and face the next set of conundrums, thank you.

I posit that the actions against Russian emigres may be a sign of Putin's weakness, not his strength. If his position is secure, why bother?

Bob, you are sounding distinctly sensitive! Every nation has its problems. We, too, have suffered with civil wars. It is not a criticism of America to note the force of the many centrifugal forces putting pressure on your unitary state today. Neither of us can be sure exactly what the outcome will be but for my part I sincerely hope that greater unity will eventually prevail. I hope I do not have to remind you that although I criticise the USA from time to time, I absolutely do wish it well.

Pat, all dictators are inherently weak which is why they always end up murdering their opponents.

Thanks for "welcome", David. For me it's also an opportunity to discover the other POV. I don't watch state channels, what I do watch is the Euronews channel. But I almost never understand the reasons of points I hear from it. Willfully or not - you've just made a try to explain it to me.
Actually, there was somewhat remotely alike with Magna Carta, but it's still debatable how effective it was. Later some trials were undertaken to create some strong, effective and comprehendible basis. However, all in all you're correct: Russia never had an analogue.
I cannot judge what happened in the beginning of last century, but I do perfectly remember what was going on in Russia soonly after the Soviet union disintegration: a total lawlessness, misery, the collapse of the army, the collapse of the all social institutions. (Just for example - my family had to cultivate the garden, in order to have some vegetables those days). By the way, two (but not the only ones) distinguished architectors of that were Berezovsky and Nemtsov. It were they, who sold completely hundreds of industrial manufactories for nothing. It were them who established the power of the real gangsters (mostly Berezovsky). And there is no exaggeration at all in my words. On the contrary, I cut the text as much as possible.
Once came in charge, Putin immediately extracted such a rascals from the power, and established at least SOME rules, where you believe it or not. And such a rules still exist, whether they bad or not.
You mentioned someone Owen Matthews, who claims that Putin lies. Well, I read somewhere, in order your words to be believed - always tell semi truth, so does mr. Matthews. I simply HAVE to examine his statements. I DO understand that it may seem beside the point, but get me right - Putin and Russia are hated in the West, so this "lie", which is the reason of that hatred, must be flawless. It must be "perfect lie".
First, does he have the moral right to proclaim Putin a liar? What was he saying about G.Bush, C.Powell, T.Blair etc. in 2003? If he did call them liars, then yes, he has such a moral right.
Second. "he insisted that there were no Russian troops in Crimea". What would have changed if he did not insist? Please, tell me.
Third. "shooting down of a Malaysian Airlines Boeing by a Russian army BUK rocket". - is anybody going to explain not WHAT happen, but HOW did it become possible to happen? is anybody going to explain what was going in Ukrainian intelligence on the eve of the event? Once Ukrainians had intercepted "the phone calls of the terrorists, where BUK was mentioned" BEFORE the crash, why they undertook nothing?
Fourth. "state-sponsored doping" Just have a look at Williams sisters, count up the quantity of "therapeutical exemptions" and you soonly understand where the "state-sponsored doping" exists.
Fifth. "US election hacking" ... well, every Russian's ambition is his/her country were of such strength so it could affect American elections. You may well guess it is actually not. Posting stuff in Facebook is not an election hacking.
I think the problem is that the West simply resigns Russian the right to have their own interests, the right to provide their own security. Putin has told it for countless times - but nobody wants to listen to him. The west cheated Russia in 1991 when it promised NATO would not extent to its borders. It soonly acquired former Warsaw treaty states and the Baltic states. It was Putin, who asked the West not to buzz at our borders anymore (I mean stop dragging Georgia and Ukraine to NATO). He wasn't heard. It was Putin who warned the West in 2008: “it was bad idea to separate Kosovo from Serbia. Many others will ask if they are allowed - why we are not?". He wasn't heard.
Of course, Russia, has numerous problems. But that's not the reason of current situation. The reason is the West's unwilling to listen to OUR CONCERNS. It looks like the West perceives Russia as a second class. Unless, you cease it - our relations will not get better. Just believe me, nobody in Russia wants to conquer the West, we got another, more important problems.
Regarding to that poisoning... it's clear as day that it's a directed provocation against Russia. No reasons explained, no investigation details transmitted, no poison sample transmitted. Nevertheless, the conclusion is ready, which is ridiculous. The upcoming WC in Russia is a "Putin's pearl" if you will. So everything what endangers it - hits Putin directly.
Thanks for everyone who overpowered.

David, more a sense of history than sensitive.

Alexey, the hacking was much more extensive than Facebook postings. The national headquarters data of both major parties were copied and the information was selectively leaked to the American public to attempt a specific effect. Several states' voter databases were also breached. Your government spent about $1 million a month for an extended time to wage psyops on several social media platforms, not just Facebook.

David the murdered opponents may be weak and should have been the dictators and alive.

Alexey,

Your bald-faced acknowledgement of Putin's lies; contorted and implausible denials of the murders of numerous Western citizens and Russian defectors; claims of some God given right to abuse, dominate, and invade neighbouring states; and sugar coated "cuddly bear with a musical instrument" facade, are what they are, and now in plain view in your monologue above.

Your nation is infested with a cancer much as the "head-cutters" as you call them have infested the Islamic world.

While trying not to be Russophobic, as we try not to be Islamophobic, the rest of the world has every right to sanction Russia who sponsors and protects your poisoners and murderers, as we do to sanction Islamist states who sponsor and protect the "head-cutters".

And more to the point, we have the right to defend ourselves against your poisoners and murders by the same means we do against the "head-cutters": Drones, proxy wars, black ops, the works.

For all intents and purposes we are at war with the Russia state, the poisoners, stranglers, and murders, and the ordinary Russian people who support them.. And in your diatribe above you reveal that you are the enemy.

And here's the clincher.

It was my birthday last week. We, my parents, partner, and I, had arranged to meet in Salisbury that very weekend, in the very area your attack took place. Salisbury lies between Surrey where I live, and the Dorset / Somerset border where my parents live, and is a convenient place for us to meet for regular birthdays and get together.

My partner said to me the week before the planned birthday lunch, "I have some vouchers for Zizzi, why don't we use them for your birthday lunch in Salisbury with your parents?".

Luckily for us the birthday lunch was postponed. My partner and I went to the Camberley Zizzi instead.

So my advice to you is this: Remember those skills in growing vegetables in your backyard your parents taught you? Good.

You're going to need them soon enough.

SoD

SoD,
Actually, I wanted to ignore another propaganda-stupefied nonsense. But some points were pretty difficult to be ignored.
@And more to the point, we have the right to defend ourselves against your poisoners and murders by the same means we do against the "head-cutters": Drones, proxy wars, black ops, the works.@
First, protect yourself from rogues and liars among the politicians you ruled by, and among the media you listen to. Once done it, we can discuss the things futher.

"First, protect yourself from rogues and liars among the politicians you ruled by, and among the media you listen to."

This is the most frequent underlying message Russian intelligence operations propagate to attempt the re-engineering of Western politics and to create division. It is an attempt to establish false priorities and blanket distrust.

The Russians have become impatient with the Western Left whose job has always been to create institutional rot, division and distrust. Just because the Cold War ended, never meant it was finished.

My original post attempted to place current events into a sort of historical background. Alas, current events pushed their way to the front in the discussion below. However, I will try to remain slightly detached from current affairs and suggest to Alexey that, of course, it is true that no country has perfection in its system of government. Even so, the older, tried and tested democratic systems are infinitely better than what the Russian people have to put up with. Putin's regime is that of a gangster. He and his 'lieutenants' steal from the people of Russia and then murder or attack any Russian citizen who dares to object - and they carry out these murders not just in foreign cities where protesters are forced to flee but also inside Russia itself. Putin has no serious opposition in his fake 'election' because the full power of the state has been used against any real opponents.

Of course, there are similar stupidities carried out in democratic countries, although murder is very rare, but the democratic system does at least provide a brake on the exercise of governmental power. Government ministers change regularly. The replacements may well be just as stupid as the old ones but at least the people know that every few years there will be a chance to throw the rascals out! That is never - repeat 'never' - going to happen in Russia and the result will be a gradual but inexorable decline.

Bob, Whitewall,
Not going to argue with you, but I really surprised on how we alike! The only difference is that we look at each other from the opposite poles.
Your intelligence operations has always done just the same you're talking about, and with the same purposes. If you change "Western Left" to "Russian right", and "Russians" to "Americans" - the whole sentence won't lose a bit of correctness.
Nontheless, it wans't Russia who began (first in 1946 and later on in 2000s) that gamble. So I think it's a good idea to stop it at least for a while, and see what happen, instead of rising the stakes.

David, it's my fault the discussion went the way it did. But I HAD to moment the statements you had pointed as an examples, because wrong premiss will always lead to wrong cuncluson.

Regarding to the all the rest... well, David, do you have any ideas on how would Britain look like if it was on the place of Russia? With dozens of thousand kilometers of the borderline, with hundreds(!)of nationalities within it, with a cunning rival on its east, with unpredictable and unreliable neighbors, with lots of commodities in its soil, and when the World's superpower is always up against you?

Something we can all agree on ...

https://nypost.com/2018/03/16/spys-daughter-was-the-real-target-in-poisoning-relative/

... blame the mother-in-law.

SoD

My mate - of the Rooskie bird incident airbrushed out of my comment by the Gaffer - is an Arsenal fan, season ticket holder, the works.

Just got a text message from him: -

"We've drawn CSKA Moscow in the UEFA league. Could be a "nervy" away game."

SoD

(Nothing nervious I guess - Arsenal will easily beat them twice :) He is going to Moscow to support the team?) (apologize for offtopic)

No, he's decided to stay at home for the away game, funnily enough.

We all breathed a sigh of relief. He's one of those guys who is a travelling disaster. Everywhere he goes some calamity befalls him and the group he's with.

He took me to see Arsenal vs. Barcelona in Barcelona a couple of years back. We were targeted by muggers and pickpockets, jackets slit open with knives and hands slipped inside to collect phones and wallets, that sort of thing, and then pelted with coins in the away stand, so packed up at half time and retreated to the pub.

Luckily yours truly, who is not really a particular football fan, fell asleep in an out of the way place in a cafe during the pre-match drinking session, and couldn't be found by the group who went on to get robbed / pelted etc. and watch half the match without me. I woke up after the game had finished, unscathed, the only one with wallet and phone intact! (Sorry Gaffer, airbrush and it's all yours ...).

SoD

Alexey, you hit a crucial point when you drew attention to the *enormous size* of Russia. I touched upon it in my post when I suggested that perhaps Britain had a slightly easier job in developing a democratic system because we are relatively small, in fact, absolutely tiny compared to Russia and also America. Even so, we had 800 years of civil wars, executed kings and religious wars before, eventually, settling upon a system that was sensible and which worked. Still not perfect but then human affairs seldom are!

I wish Russia well because I admire the stoicism and the courage of the people who have suffered enormously over the centuries. Unfortunately, I think there is worse to come! Желаю всем удачи.

Alexey,

An argument over who started it is pointless, but of course America has carried out intelligence operations against Russia. That's part of the game for all countries, including allies. However, your having a relatively closed society run essentially by one person puts us at something of a disadvantage in the techniques used against our elections.

David,

Yes, it is the size what causes all the rest problems.I do clealry understand that key democratical issues - is the keystone of the country's welfare and development. But, unfortunately, one can not teach elefant to fly. So it's not about our unwilling, it's all about... destiny, probably (regardless how pathetic it may sound). The more tensions we have the worse our future is. Therefore you (the West), should comprehend that we are not intrested in any tensions. We are not intrested in spreading anything worlwide, such an idea of early communists was a sheer madness. But what we actually want is that every issue which one way or another affects us - to be resolved with due consideration to our opinion (probably not in the best way for us, but not in the worst either). We also want the agreements achieved shall not be broken. I suppose it's not too much.

Bob,
Actually, I am not really into "Russian enterference" into American elections and hardly imagine how it could affect the result. If the president's elected unlawfully - just impeach him. What's the problem?

SoD,
I can assure you that at least in Moscow such things are impossible.
(at the group stage of the WC England plays in different cities but I beleive everything will be ok).
Personally, I used to be a football fan but I was to young to get enough money for an international away game.

Bob?

What exactly do you mean up above (17 March 2018 at 00:15) with your, "the hacking was much more extensive than Facebook postings"?

You're aware Bob that there were numerous claims published in the WaPo attributed to "anonymous sources within the Obama administration not authorized to speak on the record" alleging - "also [at almost precisely the same timeframe as the also alledged "election hacking"] the Russians hacked a US electrical grid?"

To which just for my convenience I'll turn to your seemingly favored *fact-checking* source:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/report-vermont-power-grid-infiltrated-by-russian-hackers/

Then Bob from your same comment, "The national headquarters data of both major parties were copied" - You see where I might be headed with Bob, your, "were copied"?

That suggests to me the very distinct likelihood of an insider job,
odds on favorite of mine meaning a method far more similar to how Ed Snowden, Reality Winner, or heck for that matter the method employed by (probably us the USA) however the Stuxnet virus injection was accomplished - highly likely a flashdrive or as some may be more disposed to say, a memory stick.

Very unlikely "the Russians" had anything to do with simply accomplished "copying" - a better suspect in my humble opinion would be some or all of that Crime Family outta Pakistan who were on the Federal payroll of, among quite a few more pols than just Debbie Wasserman-Shultz, and going so far as to type the name - The Awan Syndicate.

Bear in mind the last time a case involving WikiLeaks was proved in a Federal case; that turned out to be Bradley Manning releasing (gasp) Obama/Hillary era State Department cables copying.

As for Bob your, "Several states' voter databases were also breached" oughten no be so alarming given that, a Diebold executive waaaayyy back in 2004 (indeed a whole decade before even Obama missed the more recent opportunity to "do something!" before all this present hysteria has haywired America's pols generally and its' IC particularly:

https://columbusfreepress.com/article/diebold-indicted-its-spectre-still-haunts-ohio-elections

Yes though Bob, I certainly expect the Russians "do US elections" but I don't know they hold a candle to us where "interference in other countries elections" is concerned:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

Alexey, some Americans have prematurely considered impeachment. Others consider the possibility part of a baseless vendetta against Mr. Trump. There are many additional problems having to do with what we call a "democratic process" that includes lots of lawyers. You might have heard how much they complicate things for us. Usually being a country based on law works fairly well, though.

-

JK, the DNC hacker confessed:

http://fortune.com/2017/12/11/russian-hacking-election-confession/

The ties between DCLeaks, Wikileaks, and Russian intelligence are well established. And remember the Mueller indictment of the 13 individual Russians and 3 companies? You might want to review it.

I enthusiastically Bob, await the trial. The presentment of the evidence and then, the jury's decision.

You might be interested to hear Bob, back in 2012 Arkansas authorities alleged lil' ol' Your's Truly was guilty of "Disorderly Conduct" and the issue's bar at that time was set, in my opinion most decidedly, extremely low. ... Lemme see if I can find Arkansas' statute as written, hold on a couple minutes as I've - very recently - experienced a power outage (the Russians?) and I've as yet fully restored ... and I've several tabs open, patience Bob:

Okay here we go Bob.

A.C.A. § 5-71-207

"(a) A person commits the offense of disorderly conduct if, with the purpose to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm or recklessly creating a risk of public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm, he or she:

(2) Makes unreasonable or excessive noise;

(7) Creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition;"

You might be surprised to hear Bob that, contrary to the old saw "A fool is he who acts as his own lawyer" doesn't always work out as "the authorities" generally contend. I wasn't a lawyer then, ain't one now and it don't look (to me at any rate) that I'll be attending Yale Law anytime within the foreseeable future but, regardless, back in 2012 I acted as my own such

"Legal Representative" (Lawyer in other words) and if I do say so myself in my own self-estimation I know the one thing and can guess at at least another couple or more things - the one I know is, I saved myself a bunch of money. I'm guessing had I hired a lawyer there'd been a plea bargain of some sort. I guess too I'd spent a couple days after whatever the lawyer'd "worked out" two maybe three days in the clink enjoying beans and cornbread (without Barney's Benefit to my Digestion) and additionally I'm guessing I'd had some form of what's known around here as, "Court Costs."

None of that stuff happened except for the one thing I couldn't have known or either guessed at the other[s] - the presiding Judge got so "chuckled up at me and so pissed off ["angry" for my foreign readers] at the Prosecutor and the County Sheriff's witnesses, the Judge ordered me "Shut Up!" before I'd even really warmed up and then ordered, "Courts adjourned until such time as you clowns and JK can arrive at some congenialness - which don't require the County pay JK for what he's contending is damages to his reputation."

(I did feel comfortable after the negotiations with me locating my residence one county over - and I really felt comfortable I'd saved a nifty sum. I was kinda sore the Sheriff refused to, while I was in the process of relocation, the jail's cook to provide me her excellent cornbread though. I knew then and even unto now how to fix up my own mess of pinto beans.)

Too much I'm neglecting owing to my power outage to "properly explain" to you Bob the shortcomings of your presentment, such as its been.

Far as the 13 Russians Mueller's indicted Bob as I say, I'm looking forward to the trial's presentation of the evidence.

You got any idea Bob when that's likely to be? And will it be on C-Span?

JK, I would have paid good money to be a fly on the ceiling at that court hearing!

Well David, there is a transcript.

Though I'd be remiss to leave out advising that the transcript inadequately conveys the ridiculouosity of the wholesomeness.

I note Bob, from your link of 17 March 2018 at 20:52 the website's inclusion (paragraph four [4) the words:

"Fortune hasn’t verified either independently."

But as I intimated above Bob, and verily I mean it, I appreciate your presentment, such as its been.

You missed your calling Bob.

Well lookee here, IDS just went right up in my estimation ...

http://iainduncansmith.org.uk/content/iain-duncan-smith-calls-pm-raise-german-government-issue-nord-stream-2-pipeline

He's spotted the Nord Stream 2 danger.

He's a silly sausage, coz it would have been a lot easier to persuade the Krauts to kick the Rooskie energy habit before it gets outta hand if we'd still been inside the you-know-what.

The great irony of Putin's Skripal poisonings is it might, just might, have given the West a compensatory solidarity boost that outweighs even the Trump and Brexit dissonance.

If the Krauts ditch Nord Stream 2 it's game over for Vlad. The last exportable-for-hard-cash asset he had will be worthless.

Alexey, I really hope this third revolution coming your way, the third in 100 years, is the last one you have to go through.

No more suffering. From California to the Urals. That's all I've ever wanted. One last heave-ho and we might be there at last.

SoD


JK,

First off, though it might not be popular in the present venue, happy St. Paddy's Day. Now you've probably missed your calling too, since you've shown such a talent for legalese and court proceedings and such. It's hard to imagine you being disorderly in any way, though, since that would be contradictory to the studied and skillful execution of law jawin'.

Give me a break on news articles instead of being so picky. If I were to link something "liberal" like the Washington Post or Women's Wear Daily the readership here would just refuse to read it and imply I'm a fool or trying to bring about the fall of Western civilization or something else that would just make me all sad and triggered.

I'm looking forward to reading Mueller's report too. Pick up an extra brown paper bag at Barney's and drink to old Robert with me. Try Redemption Rye Whiskey. It's a pre-prohibition recipe and my favorite now. Delicious. The empty isn't good for jug band music, but you can't have everything.

No suspect has been arrested or mentioned in dispatches. Trial by media is not a good thing. Evidence and justice should be mentioned in this debate. For some strange reason the Crucible comes to mind.

Well Bob, we being e-pals as much as we manage to be I'd admonish you be keerful leading with a "First off" and following up with a bunch contractions - You is former NASA government employee enjoying certain benefits us deplorables surely ain't and your even attempting emulating hillbillianese ain't likely to accrue good to you.

E-pal to E-pal I'm just saying. Wouldn't want General Jeff to pull on an e-pal 'a mine what Genral Jeff done apparently did to some other un-deserving adiosio (you'd clued into Bob me adept at Mexicanese?) Fed getting so obviously screwed.

Of course Bob I'm gonna always be giving you the benefit of the doubt where using dubious sources is concerned - why just the other day I found myself "heeled up" delivering a widder-woman over to a doctor's office and all there was to read in the waiting room, which I admit I did was, read Redbook, so I reckon I'm liable as anybody else to get hit with a Mueller subpoena upon which occasion (given the probable expense) I'll more'n likely tell my Inquisitors my legal residence is with you wherever it is in Indiana (we'll just let the FBI figure where) you live - and hope Meuller'll ask the same delay he did for Flynn for the two of us. You can count on my loyalty Bob. I promise.

Just one advisement though my Friend - Meuller's a Special Prosecutor rather than either an IG or even an either-of-the-chambers Looking To See Finder so, if it's "a report" you're counting on forget it - won't be one.

SoD,(and, probably, David)
It's just another time when everything's clear,what's the real purpose of that perfomance with the poisoning. That's the reason to think again, who will benefit.
And now a direct question - who will benefit if pipeline 's blocked?

Just a little bit of reading for you from Russian indepenedt paper (a fery few of such, actually, because one part belongs to Kremlin, another one belongs to CIA) https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/3572291?from=doc_mail
I could have translated it by myself, but I want you to make sure i didn't change anything. These are the opinions of Moscow expats.
Just use google page translater. Allthough it's rough enough, it gives basical conception.

SoD,
I apreciate your concerns about Russia.
But Russia will never refuse it's interests. The key point is with ANY ruler it will never refuse. One of them who scrificed national interests in sake of personal power - "democrat" Boris Yeltsin managed to stay in charge for 9 years. He had so much blood on his hands so I think he should have been given away to all of his victims.
So if you're agree to consider us as (the nation, not the rulers) as an equal, everything will be ok. If you're not - you will be unhappy with us with any rulers.

@No more suffering. From California to the Urals. That's all I've ever wanted. @
That's all I've ever wanted too. But we should respect each other. If you (the West) demand anything from Russia - do not do the samethings by youself (for example do not interfere to our neighboors and we won't too).

The (unlikely) paradox is that due to political correctness, little people like Alexey and me actually have more freedom of speech in Russia than we do in Britain, a fact I was reminded of last night when trying to explain that a man identifying as a woman is fine, but that if the man was the possessor of a cock and balls at birth, he is in fact, a man. The trolls emerged big time... however, I digress.

Vil Sultanovich Mirzayonov, a scientist who developed Novichok, now living in New Jersey, has written that the skills and specific equipment to recreate it exists nowhere else but in Russia. If this is correct, then only two possibilities exist. Either some of the stuff has fallen into the wrong hands, or the Russian Government (Putin) authorised its use.

I would ask all Russian people to consider what has happened very carefully. Nerve agent has been used in Britain. Firstly, the use of nerve agent of any kind in civilised countries is incredibly rare. It was used on the Tokyo Subway, it was also used in a successful attack on Fat Boy Kim's half-brother, and now it has been used in Salisbury. That is it. Alexey, you have to understand the anger that just about every British citizen feels because of this. If nerve agent was used on the Moscow Metro, you can easily imagine the reaction in Russia.

Whichever way you dress this up, Putin is a dictator. Today is the Russian Election and there is a 100% probability that he will be re-elected. As another of my Russian friends has stated, only 15-20% of the population are likely to vote. This will not include her, for as she says, what's the point? In any dictatorship, the first thing that dies is the truth. It was true of Germany under Hitler, and also true of Russia under Stalin. The Dictator will give false information to the people, and the people will only give the Dictator that he wants to hear. Speaking truth to power is likely to prove fatal.

So it is with Putin. He can safely ignore little people like us Alexey, but if someone who is important - like Sergey Magnitsky - starts speaking out, he is not likely to stay alive for long. What makes life much more difficult for the Putins of this world is the internet and as result, it has become much more difficult for them to control the information that reaches the people.

I hope this doesn't result in a new Cold War, because then the Russian people will suffer. Why? Because Russia's weak spot remains the economy. The tactic of distracting the people with foreign squabbles and wars will only work a limited number of times. The Second part of Dr Goebbels' dictum of the big lie isn't quoted often. It reads as follows:

"The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

Putin would be well advised to read this, because since the emergence of the Internet, the lie cannot be sustained indefinitely.

Keep your head down Alexey, and continue to get your information from non governmental sources.

"do not interfere to our neighboors and we won't too"

Just remind us which Tsars didn't interfere with your neighbours, Alexy?

Richard, just a cople of remarks.
1) Mirzayonov also said that the substance can be produced out of Russia (however, skills and knowledge are needed) (here is the proof on Russian BBC service http://www.bbc.com/russian/features-43429973 )
2) Telling lie is common among all politicians. Netheir Bush, nor Blair took any responsibility for their lie-based dids.
The point is that it's common and doesn't depend on political system, personality or anything else.

backofanenvelope,
You took the phrase out of the context, which is ordinary not ok. Anyway - I will give you an answer.
Russia has never interfered any others' affairs (be ot neighboors or someone else) unless Russian interests (first (and mostly) of all, the intrest of security) was endangered. You can challenge that? You're welcome. But, provide proofs, please, not bare statements.

Here's one of the buzz feed articles from last year that pieced together the details behind each of the Russia related deaths ...

https://www.buzzfeed.com/janebradley/scientist-who-helped-connect-litvinenkos-murder-to-the?utm_term=.tnPpzVloA#.cwPRWA7J0

It elucidates in detail through one case - that of Dr Puncher, the British toxicology expert who discovered the Polonium used in the Litvinenko murder and who later allegedly stabbed himself to death with two knives - the technique being used by Russian security services and / or mafia to kill folks.

They first administer a depression drug. What this drug is or may be I haven't yet found out. Whether the authorities who investigated the 14 or so Russia related deaths bother to look for this precursor toxin and understand the "double-tap pattern" the Rooskies are using, I don't know.

As the victim starts exhibiting the signs and signals of depression to family and friends, the work is nearly done. Maybe the victim will finish the job himself. If not, then murder covered up and made to look like suicide suddenly becomes completely plausible as the emails, Facebook comments, and conversations with friends and loved ones that reveal depression and suicidal ideation come tingling out in the investigation.

PC Plod then says to himself, "Thank Gawd for that, end of a difficult case and back to handing out parking tickets" and throws the stigmatic clown or depression and suicide over the case, which no-one wants to lift and revisit.

Case closed. Vlad happy.

And Theresa May who dragged her feet on accusing Russia when home secretary, the Tory party with its £820k, Jezza with his ideological Russophilia, Trump with his golden-rain Putin fetish, and Merkel with her Nord Stream 2 energy ambitions, all happy too.

What a world, eh?

SoD

Typo "stigmatic clown or" should be "stigmatic cloak of"

SoD

So, Alexey. The Russian Tsar will only interfere with his neighbours when his interests are threatened. Who defines when interference is interference? The Russian Tsar I suppose. Tough luck on the Russian neighbours.........

This is the real tester that Putin is looking for ...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/17/fears-russian-blackmail-gas-pipeline-germany/

The danger is slowly being realized at higher levels in the West. About bloody time too.

But will the West have the solidarity to cancel Nord Stream 2?

SoD

I do admire the Russians for opposing the EU for their attempts to impose economic supremacy on them. The UK is leaving the EU and we should do a significant trade deal with Russia...The Russians have done their bit in fighting the Nazis and now Islamic fascists. Maybe it is time to recognise the Russians did not sell out their country like we did to the EU.

Alexey,
I take your point about the possibility of the agent being manufactured elsewhere, but it is worth repeating that the quantities are likely to be very small. For example Porton Down in England has probably produced some to develop respirators that are effective against it. But because the quantities are so small and there is (in this case) only one place in the country it could possibly be made, it makes it extremely easy to check up on. The overwhelming likelihood remains that the origins of the Novichok agent used are Russian.

Richard,
I'll put it in a soft and short way... - why you're so sure your government and media tell you the truth?

Richard,
sorry for not putting both points together. But anyway. In the same interview Mirzayonov says two key points: the poison is made of two separate components, which are, despite also being harmful, can be easily carried safely. They may be kept separately untill the very use. He calls at least two countries where it could be produced - the US and China. So, why you're so sure?

Alexey, no government anywhere ever tells the whole truth but here we have a two partial safeguards.

First, a highly competitive and free press all of whom are eager to catch governments telling lies. They do so because they know that no government would attempt to use force to threaten them or close them down.

Secondly, we have democratically elected parliament in which nearly half the members are even more eager to catch the government out and if possible to defeat them.

Neither of those is foolproof but they help.

What have you got in Russia and under the watchful gaze of Mr. Putin whose enemies seem to have an alarmingly high casualty rate?!

The short answer Alexey, is that nothing is certain, particularly in a case such as this where most of the evidence has not been released. However, as stated, the likelihood of the relevant laboratories in the US (or Britain for that matter) having produced more than small quantities of the agent is very small indeed, given that neither country has a chemical weapons program. Personally, I think that each country has small quantities of such agents so that they can develop protective suits and respirators (gasmasks) that will protect the wearer against them. The S6 respirator and the NBC chemical protection suits that were in service in the 90s have been completely replaced by newer types, and I think it is logical to assume that small stocks of the newer types of nerve agent were used in their development.

I must repeat that 1) because the laboratories in both Britain and America are so few in number, and because the quantities of agent produced are probably so small, it is very easy indeed to check up on. 2) Only three examples of this sort of attack with nuclear, biological or chemical weapons exist. The first was the attack on the Tokyo Subway on 20th March 1995 by the Aum Shinrikyo Movement. The agent used was Sarin. The second was the assassination of Alexander Litvinenko on 1st November 2006 (death occurred three weeks later) by two Russians believed to be members of the FSO. The agent used was Polonium 210, which was traced to Russia. One of the Russians responsible, Andrey Lugovoy is now a member of the Duma. Requests for his extradition to Britain have been refused. The third was the attempted assassination of Sergey Skripal - admittedly a Russian traitor. Tragically, his daughter Yulia was poisoned as well. Like her father, she is fighting for her life. Neither is likely to recover. British Policeman Sergeant Nick Bailey was poisoned as well and remains severely ill in hospital. According to the information released, the agent used was one of the family of agents known as Novichok. This is known to be a very advanced agent which has been produced in quantity in Russia.

Alexey, I agree that with what we know so far there are no certainties. It should be pointed out though that America (and Britain for that matter) have never carried out an attack of this nature before. If you think America was responsible, I would be very interested to know why.

P.S. None of this sad affair affects the high regard I have for the Russian people in general and a certain Alexey Petrov in particular.

David, Richard,
The reason I am arguing is that Russia has now become at the state of siege. And it's the West who contributed its 50% to that state. Personally I don't want it to be continued.

If you like, we may leave the emotions aside and discuss only facts and reasons. It must be done in the very logical way. Point by point, fact by fact. Reason by reason. So would you like?

I am very sorry and (I do apologize for such a speech) but this -

@...Mr. Putin whose enemies seem to have an alarmingly high casualty rate@ - (you really consider Skripal, Nemtsov and others of their weight as Putin's enemies? then in the same way why you don't consider tiny beetles as your enemies?@

and this

@First, a highly competitive and free press all of whom are eager to catch governments telling lies.@ - (you really don't realize how easy all the press' chiefs may be intimidated, needless to say - to be payed (bribed) or you consider them as the saint celestials? or such a things are only possible in the "evil empire"?)

makes me think that British live in the thrall of stereotypes.

Alexey,

Was Litvinenko "a tiny beetle"? It seems Putin went through great pains to kill him. Unless you're denying the polonium trail left all over London by his two killers, one of whom is now an MP in your parliament, and denying that Putin had him killed?

Also, the tone of your reply on beetles: So if someone is a big beetle, then it *is* Putin who kills them? And that's ok?

I have to link you to that legendary scene from Game of Thrones - do you have Game of Thrones on TV in Russia, Alexey? ...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=997lGD65WNc

Reference a free press, you're rather used to a press that takes bribes and isn't free. Speak for yourself. It's not like that everywhere, Alexey. There isn't a news outlet in the West that wouldn't be delighted to discover the government were telling lies, and the opposition in the UK parliament more so.

SoD

Brilliant clip Lawrence.

Alexey, I strongly recommend that you watch it- in English - for a number of reasons which include brilliant dialogue and acting. The clip is also 100% relevant to this particular argument.

Alexey, to the memory of these brave Russian men and women:

Boris Nemtsov, 2015
Boris Berezovsky, 2013
Stanislav Markelov and Anastasia Baburova, 2009
Sergei Magnitsky, 2009
Natalia Estemirova, 2009
Anna Politkovskaya, 2006
Alexander Litvinenko, 2006
Sergei Yushenkov, 2003
Yuri Shchekochikhin, 2003

All of whom share two things - they were opponents of Vladimir Putin and they were all murdered.

SoD,
1) We are not now discussing Litvinenko, aren't we? I cannot deny what I don't know (I don't know the details of that issue, only common media stuff, which I always regard as DOUBTFUL, regardless who media belong to. If you send me the details we may discuss them. But can you tell in brief, what danger did Litvinenko bear to Putin?).
2) @Also, the tone of your reply on beetles: So if someone is a big beetle, then it *is* Putin who kills them? And that's ok?@ - of course, it's also Putin , who got your tap leaked, it's definetely him who caused the snowfall, it's because of him you have a hangover after a binge, it's because of him the cat abandoned its kitten. The list is endlesss. Putin is always guilty for you?
3) Yes, we have it here, but I never seen a single episode and hardly imagine that are the series about.
4) You're inattentive. I mostly watch the Euronews channel (by the way even I don't know what Putin himself thinks about that "poisoning", so you can tell me). Yet I read the paper which doesn't criticize the West, and doesn't admire Russian authorities. It's rahter neutral. Bare citations are mostly in it.
@It's not like that everywhere@ - really? There are different people in Britain? I'll give you away one great secret - vices are the same worldwide. If it's unacceptably to you personally to lie for money, it's not the same for rest people (especially for businessmen).
Tell me just two simple things:
a) Who does YOUR favorite media belong to?
b) One can really say whatever in your "free" media (provided it's not a nazi or murdering propaganda)?

I do remember that 4 years ago I was asked by Richard to comment here some stuff about the Russian "gay law", published in a British newspaper. It turned out to be nearly total false (I simply copipasted the law's statemnts over here).

David,
There is a short poetry on "brave Russian men and women", written especially who regard Nemtsov as hero , I'll translate it for you - "Heroes die on duty, not at the bridges when walked with prostitutes".
Anyway, that's rather intresting (and I am honest now) if you call them brave - what, in your opinion, they did good for the country? What whey would fight against, probably?

Richard, SoD
The parallel with the misery beetles was to indicate the total incomparability of the political weight os some people with that of Putin. Unfortunentely, you put it in another way.
In order you to understand better - this is tne same that... you gonna challenge Myke Tyson. Imagine further - he accepts your challenge and on the eve of the match his team finds you and get you drunk, beacuse you made the "iron Mike" scare.
Sounds nothing but ridiculous.

Here's what Putin said on Politkovskaya assasination:
"... her political influence was insignificant within the country, and she was rather popular in the western political rounds. Given circumstances her murdering inflicted the authorities mush more harm than all her publications."
Moreover, I perfectly remember that day (which was Putin's birthday, btw) - vast majority of people was asking each other - who that journalist was? What she used to write about?

I've been trying you to come up with the reasons by yourselves, but unseccessfully.
So what we got:
* some who are unhappy with Putin (first of all outside Russia)
* some who: proclaims thereselves as Putin's criticizers. They are not popular (and in many cases ebe not properly known) within Russia, but well-known (and sometimes sponsored by) the west.
* some on the West who are neutral to Russia
...

David, Lawrence,

It is important to note that one of the people on your list,Alexander Litvinenko, that you describe as a hero is definitely not a hero to Alexey. For that matter, exactly the same can be said of Sergey Skripal, whom you mentioned in this very post. Alexey would describe them as traitors and would no doubt also come up with some decidedly unprintable expressions as well. You will have to use your imagination here, but let me give you a hint. Russian is the best language in the whole world for bad language... Moreover, Alexey has my full sympathy here.

When I was in Moscow, Alexey took me up on the hill by the Moscow State University and pointed out several landmarks. One of these was the cemetery where Kim Philby was buried. Now, my views on this particular traitor are every bit as unprintable as Alexey's are likely to be on Litvinenko or Skripal. Now, the Russians don't think that way about him at all. In fact, he was even given a hero's funeral. I said at the time that if he took me to Philby's grave, I would undo my flies and piss on it. I would have done as well, after a quick check for any policemen within sight. If I had taken Alexey to Highgate cemetery, where Litvinenko is buried, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he did exactly the same and nor would I be able to blame him for doing so.

Now, my views on the Salisbury attack differ from Alexey's. Nevertheless, he is a patriotic Russian who is as prepared to stand up for his country as I am for mine, and I applaud him for it, particularly as he has the balls to do so in a bear-pit like the D & N Forum. Once again, he has my full support. Well within my lifetime, Britain held the undisputed title of most unpopular country in the World. The title has since been passed to America, and it currently resides with Russia - I have to say that this is quite an achievement with particularly stiff competition from the likes of Donald Trump and Phat Phuk aka Kim Yong Un.

Alexey, I may not agree with you on this but I applaud the fact that you have stuck your head over the parapet and stood up for what you believe to be right.

Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitry Kovtun.

In which one of your three categories do they, the killers of Litvinenko, reside, Alexey?

SoD

Richard, I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked! How dare you describe this magnanimous, liberal (small 'l', mind!), free and open and gentlemanly (well, except SoD's descriptions of his drunken capers!) as "a bear pit"! No one has attacked Alexey, in fact he was warmly welcomed back, but that doesn't stop me and others pointing out some unfortunate facts about 'Mother Russia', like its habit of murdering millions of Russians throughout its history! A tradition that 'Vlad the Impaler' seems willing to emulate although for the moment he confines himself to a dozen or so, many of them women!

Here are your heroes, Alexey, here they are ...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia

SoD

SoD,
@In which one of your three categories do they, the killers of Litvinenko, reside, Alexey?@
Ask Litvinenko's father. He knows that much better than me.
I'll help you with translation, if needed.

Richard, thanks for your politeness.

Well, to sum up though I failed to explain anything the discussion turned out to be very useful for me. I learned a lot of things:
1) There is something much poorer and clumsier than Russian propaganda. It's the British one.
2) It works. It seeds hatred and hatred grows.
3) People still beleive in truthfull media. Some consider corrupted media as something existing only int the "evil empire". And this fact is particularly upsetting.
4) In the modern world, full of information, people prefer taking prearranged opinions, instead of thinking critically on them and finding out the facts by themselves.

Thanks for patience to everyone.
No real Russian comments were needed, everything is pretty good explained in the papers. Will not disturb your club. :)

Alexey, you're not disturbing the club. In case you hadn't noticed, the club is one big disturbance!

"I may disagree with everything you say, but I will defend until death your right to say it."

SoD

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