So there I was, minding my own business and pondering on the outlines of a post on the subject of the incoming 'missile' which the Catholic hierarchy have loosed off in the direction of, er, well, the Catholic hierarchy, actually, when a question popped into my ignorant brain - did Jesus really exist? Of course, from time to time during my life I had asked the question before but the means of discovering an answer, apart from taking a degree course in ancient history, were not available. But today, of course, we have this wonderful 'internet-thingie' which means that I can sit slump here before my screen and pick the brains of every distinguished history swot there ever was!
So I began but immediately hit a problem because, of course, this is religious history and you have to assume that most of the swots concerned have an axe to grind with which, depending on their opinion, they hope (or pray) may be used to chop off the heads of either believers or non-believers according to taste. Dammit, I thought, that means I am going to have to plough through both sides of what is bound to be a ferociously technical argument - and I know where-of I whinge because I have spent many an hour ploughing through the intricate, detailed arguments of Shakespearean scholars!
Well, I will make a start and let you know how I get along. In the meantime, and returning to the unholy row that is going to engulf the Catholic Church, I can only hope that the creepy Pope Francis is (so to speak) burned at the stake of public opinion, although Mr. Damian Thompson at The Coffee House warns that the conflagration could destroy the entire movement. One thing history has taught me is that in inter-Christian wars no mercy is shown!
There's no point blaming Pope Frances for the dissolution of The Roman Catholic Church that's been ongoing since before The Enlightenment. Over here the trend of religion being less popular and subsumed by politics continues:
https://news.gallup.com/poll/224642/2017-update-americans-religion.aspx
If you're not willing to do the research, David, you just might be an apatheist:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism
Posted by: Bob | Tuesday, 28 August 2018 at 16:50
Thank you, Bob, my word, you really are an education! Whilst I have always admitted to being an agnostic I don't think I qualify as an apatheist because I do think it is an important question - particularly given how many people have died for it!
Posted by: David Duff | Tuesday, 28 August 2018 at 17:32
I feel it is my duty to inform you that Frances is a girl's name. Popes are (almost) always male.
Yours pedantically
Francis, aka Frank
Posted by: Frank | Tuesday, 28 August 2018 at 19:07
Sorry, Francis, error corrected and 100 Hail Marys chanted!
Posted by: David Duff | Tuesday, 28 August 2018 at 20:32
A point to consider is that the Jewish historian Josephus makes a passing reference to Jesus when he talks about James, the brother of Jesus, and the head of the Christian community in Jerusalem. As an outsider, he admits that Jesus existed, though not about the claims about his Messiah-hood.
Posted by: Nicholas (Unlicensed Joker) Gray | Wednesday, 29 August 2018 at 02:10
I am prepared to believe that someone named Jesus existed and that he was the leader of some form of cult,but all the rest of the stuff, son of God, miracles, resurrection etc, no not at all. Like all religions it is mind control and money and power over others.
Posted by: John Duckett | Wednesday, 29 August 2018 at 05:30
Duffers - I think there is no doubt the Jesus the man existed, but quite possibly Jesus the myth and in any case the catholic church, was made by Paul.
Posted by: Cuffleyburgers | Wednesday, 29 August 2018 at 08:37
He was a Jewish lad who lost his way unlike Brian who was, according to that reliable source "The Life of Brian", just a naughty boy.
Posted by: AussieD | Wednesday, 29 August 2018 at 09:08
David, I'd remind you that a large number of people have also died over more-or-less imaginary geographical boundaries. Religion is just one more manifestation of tribalism. The evidence for the Jesus of the Bible never having existed far outweighs that he did. And you're right, it takes a lot of reading to decide one way or the other.
Posted by: Bob | Wednesday, 29 August 2018 at 13:18
What I do not understand is how the church came to claim that God sacrificed his only son on the cross to redeem us from our sins As he knew that after three days he would be resurrected to eternal life where was the sacrifice. It's. like me giving someone a pound, getting it back three days later for eternity. a good deal not a sacrifice.
Posted by: Peter Whale | Wednesday, 29 August 2018 at 14:24
Peter - very good point you old cynic, wish I'd thought of that
Posted by: Cuffleyburgers | Wednesday, 29 August 2018 at 15:00
https://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/night-of-the-demon/
Speaking of the Church, the Devil and the 'meme' tradition. Worth a read in our current world.
Posted by: Whitewall | Wednesday, 29 August 2018 at 18:30
John Duckett said it all.
Posted by: Andra | Wednesday, 29 August 2018 at 21:53
Peter- the pain was the sacrifice. Would you go through a literal crucifixion on behalf of total strangers even if you knew that modern medicine would cure you up as good as new?
As for 'Son of God' titles- every King of Israel was called a son of God. One of the psalms makes that clear. "This day I have adopted/begotten you." And the very name Israel does not mean 'Is Ra, El?' but Prince-holy. The whole nation had a name claiming a divine status.
As for the cures, I can believe it. A lot of people seem to think that they need to go to the doctor to be cured of the common cold, but their bodies do the healing whilst the doctor gets the praise. I believe a lot of them were placebo cures. Modern medicine supports the idea that placebos work- see this week's issue of 'New Scientist'! If now, why not also then?
Posted by: Nicholas (Unlicensed Joker) Gray | Thursday, 30 August 2018 at 02:40
Yes, something like the Resurrection MUST have occurred! We can tell because of what his disciples did- they founded a new religion! Not one of them ever denied the resurrection of Jesus- and none of the other oppressed groups ever claimed their founder had come back from the dead! The disciples of John the Baptist seem to have dispersed, as did the followers of other groups over time. That alone shows that something different happened this time.
Posted by: Nicholas (Unlicensed Joker) Gray | Friday, 31 August 2018 at 06:24