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Sunday, 12 July 2020

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Hippie,

We've already tried privatizing some aspects of law enforcement over here. The results have been a giant taxpayer ripoff and societal nightmare:

"Not only are your tax dollars funding these private prison operators, but you might also be investing in them without even knowing it. As of 2016, Wells Fargo, Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase, BNP and U.S. Bancorp, all played a role in bankrolling private prison companies. And I can see why. Including the three main private prison companies – CoreCivic, The GEO Group and MTC – the industry rakes in about $5 billion in revenue a year.

And a lot of that cash is used to make sure that business keeps booming.

The Sentencing Project found that from 1999-2010, CoreCivic spent on average $1.4 million per year on lobbying at the federal level, and employed over 70 lobbyists at the state level. In addition, the largest private prison companies are members of the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) – a public policy organization that has developed model bills for state legislators to use when proposing “tough on crime” initiatives."

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/the-cold-hard-facts-about-americas-private-prison-system

If you have private cops looking for shoplifters, they're going to find them everywhere - real or not. And they'll be paying off local governments to expand the definition of shoplifting and/or finding ways to be paid whether they catch actual shoplifters or not. Libertarianism 0 only because sports teams don't use negative scores.

SoD, just curious...are there "Boogaloo" types in Britain identifying as such? The ones here are anti government/anti police. They have more in common with the BLM Marxist group than anyone else.

Bob,

Just informational but 'private "cops"' over here go back abit further than your given 1999 general timeframe although I'd agree that the Clinton era crime bills was what got 'em into the civilian market bigtime. (And, from certain quarters there's always been "interested parties" doing major pushback - to no avail mostly.)

But the big push came about owing to something the "interested parties" didn't foresee:

https://warontherocks.com/2014/09/congress-can-fix-dhs-but-needs-to-fix-itself-first/

And then when Big Finance got into the act all the pushback in the world seems now to be a lost cause. And ironically, its another [the first?] instance of the parties switching sides.

According to the Fox piece I linked:

"The United States has more prisoners per population than any country in the world. In fact, about 1 in every 110 U.S. adults is currently incarcerated and 1 in every 38 U.S. adults is under some form of correctional supervision. These are big numbers, and whenever there are large numbers of people, business comes calling.

The privatization of prisons in America can be traced back to before the Civil War when in 1852, a facility now known as San Quentin opened in Marin County on the San Francisco Bay."

So the leftist hell of 'Frisco spawned the problem, though Bubba Clinton sure gave it a boost. I'm starting to think Republicans are exaggerating with their constant rhetoric about the Democrats/Left being soft on crime.

Chaos in the government? It could only be Congress's fault. I mean, no other branch is chaotic. Right?

The childlike, credulous, dewy-eyed, gullible faith Libertarians have in the profit motive as the answer to everything suggests a need for self-dealing, a few courses in logic that's not only symbolic, to get high less often, or something I haven't thought of yet. Why would business be any less corrupt than government?

“There does not seem to be cause for alarm in the dual relationship of the press to the public, whereby it is on one side a purveyor of information and opinion and on the other side a purely business enterprise. Rather, it is probable that a press which maintains an intimate touch with the business currents of the nation, is likely to be more reliable than it would be if it were a stranger to these influences. After all, the chief business of the American people is business. They are profoundly concerned with producing, buying, selling, investing and prospering in the world. I am strongly of the opinion that the great majority of people will always find these the moving impulses of our life. Of course, the accumulation of wealth cannot be justified as the chief end of existence. But we are compelled to recognize it as a means to well-nigh every desirable achievement. So long as wealth is made the means and not the end, we need not greatly fear it...But it calls for additional effort to avoid even the appearance of the evil of selfishness. In every worthy profession, of course, there will always be a minority who will appeal to the baser instinct. There always have been, probably always will be, some who will feel that their own temporary interest may be furthered by betraying the interest of others.”

Calvin Coolidge 17 January 1925

We've already tried privatizing some aspects of law enforcement over here. The results have been a giant taxpayer ripoff and societal nightmare

I love the way Bob always blames the private sector when the state gets ripped off or pols get bent over by lobby groups!

How about the procurement teams in the state are crap and get ripped off because they are crap at buying? The market sector wouldn't give the state employees a job because they are crap, which is why they work for the state. Blighty's NHS is perpetually complaining about getting ripped off by the private sector, but you never hear the private hospitals and insurers complaining about it - because the private hospitals and insurers have procurement teams who know how to buy!

How about the pols are crap and get bent over because the private lobby groups are more capable at political engagement than the state people? How about we make lobby groups redundant because the state no longer procures and provisions the service? Let the victim and / or the jury choose which prison the felon goes to. The felon's slice of the tax take for prisons goes to the private prison chosen by the victim and / or the jury. Take the pols out of the equation and the lobby groups disappear too. Let the private prisons advertise their offerings to victims and jury by all means, as the private sector does for everything else. Let the victim and jury read the ads and research the internet forums for reviews of the prisons. The institutional incompetence of the state and the market operators who routinely outwit them all goes away as a problem.

If you have private cops looking for shoplifters, they're going to find them everywhere - real or not. And they'll be paying off local governments to expand the definition of shoplifting and/or finding ways to be paid whether they catch actual shoplifters or not.

Well that's kind of an admission that the private sector would be damn good at tracking down shoplifters and villains. Great, I'm with you on that one!

And once again you observe that local government will get ripped off due to their fecklessness and the competence of private policing operators. Well I'm with you on that one too!

But if the buying power is in the hands of the citizen to choose the insurer and policing provider, why would the citizen want to be paying extra for the private policing service chase down non-shoplifters? As soon as fake shoplifting or burglaries were reported the shop or home owner would say, "You what? I haven't been robbed. what are you chasing this guy down for I've not lost any stock or had my windows broken, I'm switching to another insurer and policing service who won't rip me off - and posting a load of negative comments on the forums!"

Why would business be any less corrupt than government?

Because government's a licensed monopoly. That one's obvious. Business gets corrupt in direct proportion to how much of a monopoly or cartel is in operation. If the government steps back from operating the economy and instead tends the markets to keep them competitive the corruption diminishes - in the state because it no longer operates a monopoly and in the market likewise.

SoD

SoD, just curious...are there "Boogaloo" types in Britain identifying as such? The ones here are anti government/anti police. They have more in common with the BLM Marxist group than anyone else.

Not sure if there's any Boogie going on in Blighty, haven't looked yet.

My only knowledge of the Boogaloo movement is the Bellingcat post ...

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2020/05/27/the-boogaloo-movement-is-not-what-you-think/

Can't remember the nitty-gritty, but it seems to have a slice of everyone in it. But the common thread across most of the groups is an innate distrust of authority and the state, which isn't a bad thing. An embattled president on the top of the pile set about by an out of control democracy in the middle of the pile could reach around the rear and call out the bottom of the pile.

I think Machiavelli himself observed: the king appeals to the people with Libertarian gestures to keep a rampant nobility in check, and then appeals to the nobility with Authoritarian gestures to keep a rampant people in check.

The Don calling out the Boogaloo to rattle their AR15's at Washington is always an option in the US. Sadly Blighty has no such non-linear checks and balances.

SoD

Off-topic for the purpose of this "Sunday Rumble" but then of course as it's me whaddaya espect!???

(Bob made some noises in this regards some days back so I wuz thinkin' wtf!)

https://havechanged.blogspot.com/2015/06/misremembering-history-ny-times-edition.html

Do note the date - 2015 - that's pre-Trump!

SoD,

The NYT, product of America's most conspicuous big city, has been a Bête noire of the right forever - because it does represent the outlook of a big city and not what you would call country bumpkins. It's nonsensical to be worked up about the NYT's bias but not, say, the Washington Examiner's or Wall St. Journal's. All newspapers have a bias of some kind.

In broad strokes government and business aren't very different, being human enterprises and subject to an endless supply of bad judgement. However, the purpose of business is to get money. It has no concern for human happiness or improvement other than what might be gained by buying their product. No one not a majority shareholder or member of the board has any say whatever in how a business behaves. Externalizing costs and creating phony needs have been ripping off taxpayers since civilization began. There are good reasons there's never been a libertarian country.

Btw, it's not just the NYT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvIRh-qt9EQ

Bob, you're like the shoe salesman who went to Africa and reported back, "Nothing of interest to us here, they go barefoot".

With sales skills like that no wonder you dodge the private sector!

Think of the four corners of Nolan's chart as like Churchill's old WWII adage about America ...

Americans Will Always Do the Right Thing — After Exhausting All the Alternatives

Left, right and bottom pointy corner, and then grudgingly at the Boogaloo bayonet point of a pissed off population, finally the top corner.

And historically, it's interesting to note that Liberty has appeared and thrived in only two places: the motherland of empires or at the periphery of civilisation. All the best thoughts and deeds of Liberty were done there: Greece, Rome, Britain and America. (And of course China in 2500BC, which I never knew about until recently. Plenty of digging to be done there by me - and a storm of "boremunition" coming your way when I'm done!).

I'm convinced empire has done greatest service to Liberty by sending all the pols away from the motherland and off to the colonies, and chasing the Liberty loving natives and colonials out of the vassal states and into the periphery.

Someone could probably get a PhD out of researching that one a bit: looking at all the major empires and charting the progress of Liberty against them.

The struggle of mankind is as much one against the political gene as it is famine and pestilence.

If there was a choice of two vaccines on 1st Jan 2021: one against Covid and the other against the pol gene, which would you choose if we could only have one?

Ref your "business is only interested in money" observation: remember markets aren't only comprised of businesses. Charities, co-ops, mutuals, not-for-profits, even clubs. These constitutions all compete as well. But the people decide who wins and what the balance of operations will be out of the competing constitutions.

And who's to deny the will of the people?

SoD

Don't try selling ice to Eskimos, SoD. You might have heard somewhere the countries and territories occupied by empires didn't feel especially liberated. Of course we forgive you, but it's only because you've give us Monty Python and The Beatles.

Belief in the existence of the pol gene is limited to Lawrence Duff so far as I know. Greed, on the other hand, is fairly well documented. The Code of Hammurabi, written around 1754 BC, takes a dim view of theft:

Law #22: "If any one is committing a robbery and is caught, then he shall be put to death."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi#Laws_of_Hammurabi's_Code

Those old-fashioned values would be still be useful in cases like Enron's market manipulation or HSBC's money laundering.

Even if they were actually businesses, charities aren't as good examples as you might think:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/34515505/ns/us_news-giving/t/insider-theft-big-problem-small-charities/

https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2019/donald-j-trump-pays-court-ordered-2-million-illegally-using-trump-foundation

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