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Saturday, 09 October 2021

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I get lost in the term 'classical liberals' when applied to current day British politics. The 19th century up to WW1 brand or a hybrid 'economic/social' that evolved after that?

Over here, 'C/L' and its major trappings will more likely be found on the newly forming Conservative side.

Daniel Hannan displays the type of "the hoi polloi should know its place" attitude that's currently popular among the political chattering classes. It amounts to no more than virtue signaling and convinces no one since no one likes to be scolded. That might have been made evident to you by the Brexit vote, you elitist.

Instead of just throwing shade, why don't you put forth some solutions to your current problems making use of your religion of rugged individualism? For example, the shortage of truckers could be solved by paying individuals to take the back seats out of their autos, making room to deliver pigs and chickens to slaughter houses and the processed results to supermarket cold cases. Not everyone can get a job building nuclear submarines, though that great sellout to China, Joe Biden, has tried his best.

Mr. Hannan truncates his take on Ronald Reagan at a very convenient point. He neglects mentioning the flurry of corporate takeovers and consolidations that destroyed competitive capitalism in the US. He also resists going on to the period when manufacturing jobs flew first to Japan then Mexico and China, and nearly every small town in America has been destroyed by unrestrained (free) trade. He also ignores it all happened with a huge assist from the Clinton administration that's been branded Democratic Socialist in some quarters.

Other than that, great opinion piece.

Whiters,

Whenever I say something with "Classical Liberal / Libertarian" in it, it means "The 19th century up to WW1 brand" as you put it.

If Dan Hannan is to be believed, the Right in the US was cleft between the "Classical Liberal / Libertarian" infusion into the Right driven by William F Buckley that lead to Ronnie Reagan (mirrored by Keith Joseph's ear-bashing of the Tory party that lead to the same result with Margaret Thatcher), and the traditional "Captain Mainwaring" style conservative intellectual Russell Kirk (Uncle Sam's Edmund Burke?), who said himself he seemed closer to socialists than Libertarians (See what I mean Bob? Pointy bottom corner of Nolan's chart squeezes the hard left and right together 'n' all that?) ...

In the United States, party identities had been as much about regional loyalties as anything else, but a more coherent Right began to take shape in the 1950s. The realignment was driven by William F Buckley, the brilliant, handsome, charismatic editor of the National Review, who believed that constitutionalists, patriots, libertarians, Christians and others must stand together against the Soviet menace. This notion became known as “fusionism” and, though it had its critics (the mighty conservative intellectual Russell Kirk used to argue that he had even less in common with libertarians than he had with socialists), it worked, paving the way for Ronald Reagan’s ascendancy.

Buckley vs Kirk. Next weekend's reading and homework for me! Tell me all about those two, Bob and Whiters please! I'll be honest, I've never heard of them!

SoD

Russell Kirk wrote many books about conservatism-small c.
He also did a summary of principles called:

https://theimaginativeconservative.org/2021/07/ten-conservative-principles-russell-kirk.html

He was a prolific writer.

... constitutionalists, patriots, libertarians, Christians and others must stand together against the Soviet menace

Just swap out "Soviet menace" for "the four riders of the apocalypse: Blue socialism, wokery, climate alarmism, and Covid tyranny" and we can all move forward again.

But I don't see it, not nowhere, no nuffink.

Hannan seems to just assume it'll all be alright on the night, "But when we do eventually turn things round", he says. I just can't get that totally un-backed-up statement out of my mind.

Where's it gonna come from Dan?

SoD

SoD,

Actually, Edmund Burke is still our Edmund Burke. Oddly enough he's most popular among the professionals in the Democratic party. I don't know if it's still in the header of the 'other blog' as you put it, but the 'other writer' always claimed sympathy for Burkean conservatism, which in that context means incrementalism. It's the consensus of the Dem pros that the hoi polloi just can't handle big changes, particularly when it means it might cut into their party's campaign contributions from annoyed corporations.

I've never studied Kirk, but do remember him. He attempted to give the business party a rational for acting morally and was, of course, a complete failure.

Buckley had a weekly TV show called Firing Line on our "liberal leftist" Public Broadcasting Service (PBS), which I often watched. He also established the National Review, a leading magazine of the American right. He probably does deserve a good deal of credit for bringing conservative constitutionalists, libertarians and Christians together. Including patriots and all constitutionalists, however, makes an unsupportable assumption.

Buckley's Republican party has been dead since the 1990's. It's gone through several iterations since then, before becoming a cult of personality and party of wretched obeisance to coal, oil, pharma, banking, the defense industry and the other usual blue chip Dow Industrial suspects.

Since it's a slow day I watched a few episode of Firing Line. You can decide for yourself, SoD, if Buckley was handsome or charismatic. The way he darted his tongue in and out was a little too lizard like, but he was undoubtedly a public intellectual and gentleman.

You're too young to remember the sexual revolution that also happened in Britain around the same time, but this is an episode that still might give a Brit a sense of those times in America. Making a point of speaking in opposition to Hugh Heffner is one item that attracted fundamentalist Christians to Buckley and his political philosophy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71B6hqEbbYQ

That was brill Bob, thanks, and now I'm late for work!

SoD

I don't know if it's still in the header of the 'other blog' as you put it, but the 'other writer' always claimed sympathy for Burkean conservatism

Bob, who's the other blog you've been referring to recently? You mentioned it when Mary was on here a week or so back. Do you mean the Gaffer? Or someone else?

SoD

SoD,

I mean PM Carpenter's blog where I 'met' your father and AussieD. What 'other' blog did you mention to Mary?

I've deliberately steered clear of spreading the Love onto other blogs for the simple fact that I still work and oblivion would loom if I got involved outside of D&N!

Well maybe a wafer thin mint would do no harm? ...

https://www.pmcarpenter.com/2021/10/our-children-always-come-first-right.html#comment-6a00d83451bc2169e20278804fc1e9200d

SoD

Looming oblivion? Maybe a little melodramatic. We might be an armed madhouse, but we seldom export trigger happy maniacs to the UK. At least so far as I know.

The problem with your argument over at Carpenter's is that comparing the US (or UK) to a third world or emerging nation makes no sense. You weren't born in a manger and some people are, you ingrate. See what I mean?

Also, somewhere around 80% of the Don's tax cut went to people who didn't need it:

"For the wealthy, banks, and other corporations, the tax reform package was considered a lopsided victory given its significant and permanent tax cuts to corporate profits, investment income, estate tax, and more. Financial services companies stood to see huge gains based on the new, lower corporate rate (21%), as well as the more preferable tax treatment of pass-through companies.4 Some banks said their effective tax rate would drop under 21%."

https://www.investopedia.com/taxes/trumps-tax-reform-plan-explained/

What "permanent" means in this case is that tax cuts for wage earners all had expiration dates. Whenever someone in Washington, DC says they want to cut taxes, it doesn't mean they want to cut your taxes. It means they want to cut their donors' taxes. Apparently the Republican rank and file is incapable of learning that lesson.

Apparently the Republican rank and file are incapable of learning that lesson.

Picking me up on the comparison to those born in a manger is a bit strawman. I also quoted Tim Worstall on the comparison of the bottom decile of US poor to other rich countries, and the Americans are at least comparable.

The only difference is Yanks spend the kiddies' wedge by themselves, whereas Brits and some (but not all) of the Euros have it spent for them by the state.

Unless the market is a stitch-up - like healthcare in the US - the individual spender will always do better for the kiddies than the incompetent, negligent, corrupt state procurer (unless they blow it all on beer and football).

SoD

Jesus. You do know what a double entendre is? The English also have it better than most people in the world, and better than Americans where health coverage is concerned. Commence feeling guilty immediately.

Here's the problem with your "government baaaaad" idea: Some people are too poor to afford child care, and are thus driven to live on our version of a dole. Direct payments aren't going to happen in our current politics, so the child tax credit has been tried as a sneaky way to provide the service. The problem with that is many poor people don't make enough to file a tax return or are ignorant of all the hoops that must be jumped through to apply for aid, which can be really onerous depending on the state.

A state run system probably wouldn't be optimum, but letting the perfect be the enemy of the good is a logical fallacy. It would be better to spend some money to help poor children than spend more to let the wealthy build a bigger bank account in some tax haven.

Radio silence. No insult was meant above, SoD. I hope you didn't take it as one. However, I'll admit to being a bit peevish from having had you imply I'm a Nazi and so on.

We've reached the point in the US where the top 1% own more wealth than the entire middle class. That is, the middle 2/3 of all wage earners or self-employed in the country. The so-called "American dream" has been ruined for the generations after mine for the foreseeable future.

That's why your cabby liked what Bernie Sanders has to say. Or more likely ex-cabby since he's probably been driven out of his job by Uber and Lyft. That's why Trump. That's why Brexit. The neoliberal experiment has been run and has been disastrous. You're going to have to come up with a new politics.

Bob, you are certainly not a person resembling a Nazi. The EU is becoming far right and the emergence of fascism is a possibility. It is now expected that Islamic attacks on the infidel will continue in EU and surrounding countries. Islam is the new Nazi and do expect continuous war. The UK, USA and Australia have done a good defence deal.

Bob,

"Radio silence" - some people have a job to do! Plus I thought I'd left this comment already but must have moved on before hitting the publish button.

Not sure I've ever called you an actual Nazi, maybe isomorphic to a Nazi, but hey ho, I'm sure you can handle it! I'm struggling to see any insult in your above that would upset me?

Ref redistribution not reaching the poor, how about we try this: Don't target the money. Give every swinging dick and fanny £14,000, everyone, rich and poor, in exchange for them turning up in a workplace for 40 hours a week. No need for any form filling, just your name will do. Put the £14k onto their phones - not even a name required then, just a thumb print. Those dumbass poor people you think are incapable of filling out a tax return sure seem OK when it comes to spending the wedge with their phones, leave 'em to it. And sack the army of social administrators who currently try to target the money coz you don't need 'em no more.

And at the same time do a flat rate tax so the middle and high income earners don't have to hire an expensive tax consultant every time they earn some wedge.

Ref the top 1% of Amercans, stop whingeing. The reason you're considerably better off than those born in a manger is precisely because that 1% were allowed to follow their fear and greed; your prosperity was achieved by hanging onto their coat tails.

Without them you'd be in a manger too.

SoD

Glesga,

Islamists are similar to Brownshirts in a lot of ways. Thanks for not buying in to my being a Nazi.

SoD,

Yes you did. I'd like to see direct payments put into practice, but it's probably not politically possible on a large scale at this time; at least not in America.

You lack balance in your perception of the super rich. Many inherit their wealth or get it through non-productive means, be they scams or outright illegal activity. They also avoid taxes, which eventually destroys the social infrastructure that helped them get rich. They can also make money by causing great harm ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sackler_family ). They aren't all Ayn Rand style heroes. Sadly, you just can't let go of neoliberal naivete.

C'mon then Bob, show us your link(s)!

I've looked for "Nazi" and "National Socialist" but can't find one where I'm calling you one.

SoD

I know where the nonsense comes from but where’s the Duff

SoD,

INURL: has let me down, but you accused me of being a socialist and linked this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDuHXTG3uyY

It wasn't Pythonish at all. Not at all.

I'll take another dig and see what I can find.

I noticed you've already dropped "national" off the accusation - or was it a typo?

SoD

Fenris!

Welcome aboard, add some barking to the madness!

SoD

I googled your link Bob, here's the result ...

https://duffandnonsense.typepad.com/duff_nonsense/2021/01/will-the-eu-break-up-this-year-or-next.html

Can't see me having a pop at you in there. Just the actual, errr, national socialists now running Blighty.

If I did call you a National Socialist then than that was a factual mistake of course for which I would apologise, but I don't think I ever did (although I'm happy to stand corrected if it's discovered that I did).

SoD

SoD,

Evidently it was a different version of the video. The comment you found wasn't addressed to me. Anyway, conflating social democracy and national socialism is superficial, to say the least.

conflating social democracy and national socialism is superficial, to say the least.

Well Blighty is definitely nationalist and socialist in the independent meaning of those two words, the Blue Socialists running Blighty right now are nationalist and socialist, I don't think anyone denies that? BoJo said "fuck business" and "I'm a Brexity Hezza" - Hezza being a statist, paternalistic and collectivist pol. Brexit and the vast expansion of the state deliver on BoJo's pronouncements.

If you're worried about Jew hating and racism being absent in the nationalist and socialist behaviours of Blighty's government, just look at the Labour Party to fill in the blanks. Jew hating and anti-white racism you'll find in as much abundance in the Labour Party as at any Brownshirt conflab in 1930's Germany - just swap out the Slav hatred piece and replace it with hatred of white people in general.

If you're worried about the fake science of eugenics and Marxist social theory being absent from the nationalist and socialist government, just swap it out with climate alarmism and the misplaced linear correlation between temperature and carbon.

So between the blue, green and red socialists that represent the only real choice on Blighty's ballot paper the entire National Socialist manifesto is there: nationalist, socialism, race hatred, and fake science. And Blighty's failed democracy merely passes the baton amongst its three selves.

SoD

National socialism is just another name for Nazism, and you know it. There's no point in following you down the climate denial rabbit hole. You can address the white victimization claim by making a convincing argument you'd rather be some other hue.

You can address the white victimization claim by making a convincing argument you'd rather be some other hue.

Let's see how it pans out. The Woke, BLM, Antifa, Climate Alarmism movement is just in the conflab stage, with "implementation light" regards white people so far.

Not true for black people of course. The central and sub-Saharan African holocaust is in full swing. Black people being gassed to death in their own homes by Greta and the Green Blob at the rate of 600,000 a year for a decade, making that oh so historically poignant "grand total".

So right now I'd rather be white. Give it a few years and I might have a more Slav-in-the-1940's point of view.

SoD

You're probably not going to win back your dad's cohort with equivocation. Vaccine mandates, critical race theory, Tucker Carlson's white supremacism, the return of Trumpism and blaming Biden for everything bad that's ever happened in America are what currently sells to the American right.

Is there a British right anymore? Brexiters got their way and seem satisfied to sit back and see what happens. Scolding is pointless now. Maybe you could write about how libertarianism is going to create a new golden age in the face of its utter failure for most Brits, or write a diary of what it's like to live under dystopian blue socialism, Winston Smith style.

The diary sounds good, until they come around.

Could be a thousand years mind. Gonna be a long one, this Dark Age. I doubt the same players that lead the last Renaissance and Enlightenment will be the same as those who lead the next one.

In the meantime, it's getting to be much more personal for the time left Fluffbun and me on this earth. "Go where the immigrants go" is our guiding light, through the golden door and all that. Where they're going is where you can live comparatively freer and prosper better than anywhere else. And they were coming to Blighty in the Cameron / Obsborne era, and even the Blair era before then. Now they don't wanna.

In fact the flow seems to be reversing. Everyone's headed to central and eastern Europe. The irony is it's the Brexiteer's paradise: strong nationalism, eschewing of wokery, climate scepticism, upholding of Western and European culture, free internal movement across 440m people, capital, good and services. The contrast with the opposite actuality in Blighty is stark: divisive anti-Brit devolution and separatism, multi-party wokery, climate alarmism as established religion, denigration of Western culture in favour of privilege and positive discrimination towards external cultures, internal borders preventing freedom of movement.

The Gaffer's entourage are not far different to me in philosophy. The reason they're quiet is because they're starting to realize the enormous, gargantuan execution cock-up they've made that has put in jeopardy everything they - and I - hold true. The lurker stats are just as high as when the Gaffer held sway. They've just buttoned it while they digest what the hell they're going to do with Brexit to avoid losing that very everything they hold true.

There's still a chance of a saviour. If he or she comes it will be like a bolt out of the blue - or maybe the red. Libertarianism is a tart, sat there in the pointy top of Nolan's chart, in betwixt the two of 'em. And then we'll be back again, with all the other digital nomads, "Citizens of Nowhere", and immigrants.

Look at this, even the prez of Greece is making the right noises ...

https://www.euronews.com/travel/2021/05/25/greece-is-gold-for-digital-nomads

50% tax break for the first 7 years - Jeez! I mean it rhymes with "clucking bell" or wot! Greece? The failed state of the Euro currency, back in black. Wow. How fast is their broadband I wonder?

Well that would make a fantastic Netflix story, wouldn't it? The golden door moves back to where it all began before it was chased half way across the world by the pol-gened ones, and we all live happily ever after.

SoD

SoD,
This explains a lot of our WOKE capitalism and maybe some of yours too. 'Woke' is an intolerant religion.
https://www.aier.org/article/the-distorted-market-for-woke-capitalism/

Love it, Whiters!

Bob has it in for the large corporates as well, not quite for the same reasons, but I think D&N opinions are more overlapped than we give them credit for.

I'm desperately trying to avoid a work "unconscious bias" webinar that the "Diversity" team are trying to foist on me. I'm not sure I'm long for their world. Just wanna get my year end bonus in, and then I'll attend - and go out in a blaze of glory!

I'm going to try and record it when it happens. And I'll post it up here for your delectation.

SoD

SoD,

Things probably have changed permanently, as they always have. Greece is taking advantage of the fact there are so many unhappy workers in other parts of Europe. That includes programmers like yourself who can live anywhere.

The same is happening in some states. There are other interesting changes going on in the American workforce too. Over 4 million have quit their low-wage, high-stress jobs. Unions are making a comeback. Those already unionized are striking in numbers unseen in decades.

Whitewall's article is hilarious. It begins with this:

"... large established businesses don’t actually like competition, aren’t wildly excited about other people’s new ideas and products threatening “their” market share, and are quite happy to hop into bed with complaisant legislators to use state power to make life difficult for new and potential competitors."

It then goes on to unironically and absurdly blame wokeness, liberal guilt and Marxism for the current state of markets. Reagan's deregulation in the name of "free market" capitalism and the huge price- and market-fixing monopolies that have followed get no mention. Nor does all the mischief, market crashing, or profit-at-any-cost behavior of banks and pharma. Nor the building of global supply chains in the constant drive for cheap labor.

Deny all you want. Libertarianism and it's twin neoliberalism have hit the wall. They probably won't be back any sooner than the Spanish Inquisition.

Deny all you want. Libertarianism and it's twin neoliberalism have hit the wall. They probably won't be back any sooner than the Spanish Inquisition.

When have I ever denied that? I've been banging on about it - the new Dark Age - for 6 years.

SoD

Very clever, SoD. Indeed you have; with no admission of why they haven't worked.

Correction: Global supply chains are more a result of Clinton's policy than Reagan's.

On the subject of Greece, you might have noticed the Chinese have made a big investment in Greek seaports.

Very clever, SoD. Indeed you have; with no admission of why they haven't worked.

I've explained numerous times what's rolling back the prosperity and freedom gains for everyone of globalisation, neo-Liberalism, and Libertarianism: The Left and Right authoritarians combined: Wokery, socialism, climate alarmism, Brexit, mercantilism to name but a few I've slagged off over the years.

The rollback isn't happening because globalisation, neo-Liberalism, and Libertarianism have failed. It's because the pol-gened folks have no role any more and that couldn't be allowed to sink into the consciousness of mankind. And so a panoply of fake failures had to be deployed to falsely frame globalisation, neo-Liberalism, and Libertarianism. Each movement had it's own lies and they were all brought together because globalisation, neo-Liberalism, and Libertarianism was too successful, as always happens in this case of a dominant power: the rest become friends on the "my enemy's enemy is my friend" basis ...

Wokery - failed Marxist social science regurgitated
Socialism - failed Marxist economic and social system sneaked in under the cloak of democracy
Climate alarmism - fake science ignores non-linear systems in mathematical chaos and primary causality
Brexit - total fakery across the board
Mercantilism - failed economic system demonstrably outperformed by free trade, single markets, and multi-markets.

Globalisation, neo-Liberalism, and Libertarianism rely on the kind of pol who's rarer than rocking horse shit, the one not in denial that "pols are the problem not the solution" to paraphrase Ronnie. We've only had two, possibly three, in my lifetime.

In a nutshell, it's the pol-gene that can't abide globalisation, neo-Liberalism, and Libertarianism. But the pol-gene can't leave them totally alone either, otherwise everybody starves and dies.

So this struggle is a non-linear system in mathematical chaos, exactly like the temperature and carbon charts of climate change, swinging back and forth within bounds: more like North Korea for a few centuries, then back to the wall coming down and freedom and prosperity for a few decades like the 90's and 00's, rinse and repeat.

It's just we're going into a North Korea like phase of the cyle just now, is what makes me whinge.

SoD

Trying to legitimize ideology with mathematics is a non-starter. Ideology is still belief over actual thinking.

"Woke" is from 1930's black slang. It was originally "stay woke", meaning stay awake to social and political issues. Wokery is a small movement still mostly concentrated in the black community. The woke community had nothing to do with setting economic policy over the last 40 years.

Socialism - Lumping anything associated with socialism into a Marxist plot is silly. Government grants to business, in their many forms, are socialistic. Both our societies use them extensively. Think Karl would approve?

Climate change denial - Yawwwwwn. A straw man device that furthers propaganda flacking for coal and oil, which have many more drawbacks than just Co2 emissions. Progress will continue replacing fossil fuels no matter what you believe.

Brexit - Now this one's interesting. How much do you think the economic displacements caused by neoliberal economic policies contributed to Brexit? You'll try to deny it, but your philosophy is as responsible for Brexit as anything else. People just don't like having their jobs offshored, or unaffordable housing, etc. The popular scapegoats are secondary.

Mercantilism - Insofar as mercantilism equals crony capitalism, we agree.

Bob, I hope you are not attempting to be a philosopher or as we call them in Scotland, bull shit artists. The human race will plod on in the same old fashion as they have done for centuries.

Spoken like a non-linear system in mathematical chaos Libertarian Glezza - you're a natural!

I had to learn it on the knee of my dear Da.

SoD

Glesga,

Nearly all of philosophy is bullshit. Ethics and the philosophy of science get a little leeway.

SoD,

Helter Skelter! World Skelter!

SoD,

Every once in a while I forget you're not of my generation and might not understand a jab:

https://www.charlesmanson.com/theories/helter-skelter/

Chaos equals insanity.

Hope the real old Duff is well and he leaves me his Long John's in his Will.

Jimmy I'm wondering about the elder Duff myself, the Memsahib too.

The Gaffer's Long Johns are as saggy and baggy as they ever were.

He seems happy enough watching daytime TV end-to-end, pottering up and down to get tea and coffee, always with a smile on his face. His short term memory is shot to pieces, but his long term memory and cognitive reasoning are still sound as a pound.

I keep prodding him to get back on the computer and maybe do a post. But he just can't can't muster the enthusiasm. I do regularly pass on your regards and enquiries. I'll give him another prod and poke.

Cheers,

SoD

Maybe he's realized political philosophy is all bullshit and it's more fun to watch Line Of Duty. In any case, best wishes.

Boris has gone deep green and the UK has run out of carbon-dioxide for the purpose of food preservation.

The irony is just too much.

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